Handling the Disturbing News That Someone Close to You is Voting for Donald Trump

Early voting has started in the US and, like it or not, politics is at the center of many families’ dinner table conversations. I’m not of the mindset that religion and politics are taboo discussion topics in social or family situations. In fact, it’s those conversations that educate me most about what kinds of people my family ad friends truly are, scary as that may turn out.  These are often deep, well thought out, intelligent conversations that are more of an exchange of ideas than an attempt to change minds.  So I encourage such discussions, because let’s be honest, small-talk about trivial topics like sports and television shows gets boring and redundant after a while.

And of course, we have the obvious uncomfortable downside to such exchanges. Someone close to you just told you they’re voting for Donald Trump.

Image credit: iStock
Image credit: iStock

Your brain starts spinning. Suddenly you become every serial killer’s next-door neighbor interviewed on the news. Lines like, “I would have never guessed this about him,” or, “She was always so quiet and unassuming,” and, “But he has a good job and a family,” start flying through your head.  You’re in shock. You don’t know what to say next, except for, “Wait, WHAT?!?!?!”

So how do you handle it?  Shut them out completely and walk away? Vow never to talk politics with them again?  Unfriend them on Facebook (the ultimate betrayal)?

My advice — None of the above.

Stay calm.  No matter what, please stay calm.  Our current Presidential candidates, their campaigns, and the media have all contributed to the extreme divisiveness that has accompanied this election.  In some sense, the rhetoric on all sides has manipulated the public into the camp versus camp mentality with no middle ground in sight.  But that’s not entirely how we operate as human beings. We’re constantly negotiating, compromising, and finding middle ground.  This election is a mere moment in time, and one day we’ll look back on it as “that crazy election,” hopefully with our relationships intact.

I encourage calm discussion when disturbing revelations like allegiance to Trump come about. It’s vital to keep in mind that our relationships are what’s important here. Ask questions about their choice of candidate, but do it in a non-threatening way.  Understanding why they are voting for Trump could do a few things. First, it could open a door for you to educate them on your candidate. Maybe you have an opportunity to influence their decision with actual facts.  Second, it could soften the blow you felt when you learned about their choice.  Maybe they have a legitimate reason for their decision you hadn’t thought of before.  Maybe it’s not all about racism, sexism or xenophobia. Or maybe I’m too much of an optimist.  Either way, a negative reaction just makes you part of the problem.

I believe that dealing with conflict effectively comes down to 20% being the actual difference of opinion and 80% how we react to it.  Often times, disagreements are exacerbated by how we handle them, avoiding the actual crux of the situation, and arguing over what happened afterward. Kind of like when you have an argument with someone for 20 minutes and then forget what actually started it.  We’ve all done it.  So it’s all about how you take the Trump news.  Are you going to overreact and call that person an idiot, a racist, or worse? Or are you going to process that information and calmly try to get to the motivating factors before you decide to never talk to them again?  Because let’s be honest, that still might end up being the solution.  We just don’t need to always start there.

Thanks to Emilios for the topic suggestion.

 


Kevin Davis

Kevin Davis is the head writer and editor for SecularVoices, co-founder of Young Skeptics, and author of Understanding an Atheist. He is known for local and national secular activism and has spoken at conferences and events such as Reason Rally 2016 and the Ark Encounter Protest and Rally.

View all posts by Kevin Davis →

353 thoughts on “Handling the Disturbing News That Someone Close to You is Voting for Donald Trump

  1. In principle I agree that we should try to talk to people (at least for a short while) before we strangle them. But the last Trump supporter I met said she was gung-ho for Trump because of his policy on immigrants. Immigration is the biggest problem facing America these days. She thinks the wall is a good idea. “And no way would I ever vote for Clinton! She’s a witch!”

    What I’m trying to say is that some people don’t really give you an opening for reasonable, intelligent conversation. At least this woman is not someone I’m close to, or ever will be.

    1. > She thinks the wall is a good idea.

      I wonder how the cost of his wall would compare with the cost, say, of building an entire New York City?

  2. I’m already well aware several in my family are voting for Trump. My brother posts meme after meme on how great Trump is, how crooked and corrupt Hillary is, and how Obama is a failed president. At this point I don’t poke holes in his arguments to try and change his mind. Now I just do it to fuck with his head. I counter his “arguments” (as if memes equate to political discourse) with actual facts, then he will post a ton more, as if the quantity of bullshit will make the memes any more true.

  3. Sorry, but no. Would you take the same approach if someone said “You know, cannibalism isn’t as morally repugnant as people make it sound”, or the ones I DO hear down here in Texas “The South was standing for States Rights, and the blacks were better off because of it”. No, there is no “first, see WHY they believe it”. The first thing should be “no, sorry, there is no reason I should get any of your crazy on me or in my life.”

  4. Nope, not me. Anyone I know who supports Trump are straight up ignored. I block them online, unfriend them if necessary, etc. If anyone supports him unapologetically, they get cut off. Period. Thankfully, I don’t have this issue in my immediate family because we’re black and not stupid, but I can see how this would be an issue for white families. I’m almost “privileged” in that way, by comparison.

      1. First of all, let’s get one thing straight. I only check off the Democrat box because you have to align to either party in order to vote for primary elections. Beyond that, I don’t prefer to officially identify as Democrat but as a general liberal. I have my own issues with the party and I have thoroughly criticized them and some of their other major candidates in the past, so don’t get it twisted.

        Secondly, Democrats haven’t been aligned with major racists in over 40 years. You are looking at the Republicans. Learn your history.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw47QpOK9gw

        Finally, I don’t allow any party to treat me like anything, and I surely can’t speak for my entire race, but I’m fairly sure most of us who are left-leaning would disagree with that notion. But we’re significant voting bloc and so the parties can’t be blamed for recognizing that much and trying to take advantage. We fought to earn our right to vote and paid the price for admission, so it is what it is. Even if we have to deal with insincere pandering from the left and half-hearted recognition from the right, that’s the state of modern politics for better or worse. But no matter who is in control in politics, we’ve always done what we needed to do to take care of ourselves and have aligned with whoever we needed to in order to get shit done. When Republicans weren’t almost universally racist asshats, we worked with them to establish civil rights. When the Democrats switched with them ideologically, we’ve aligned with them to do what we could for the benefit of our own communities. So it’s not a matter of either political party owning us. It’s the other way around. We make them work for us.

        1. Ok,thank you for a thoughtful answer. I get that you identify as a liberal just as I identify as a conservative. But if we all agree that people are equals then I see no need for programs like “afirmative action”. If we are equal let the rules be the same for everyone. I would consider it racist for a political party to tell me my race needs special programs for employment, college, etc. Do you see my point, when the dems say they are going to help black folks they are telling you that you are not as good as others. I would be insulted.

          1. If that’s all you have going for you as to why you deem the Democrats racist, we will agree to disagree because you’re off base. I can’t be asked to see a point where none exists. If all things were institutionally equal, we wouldn’t need affirmative action for anything. Plus, statistically speaking, it’s white women who take the most advantage of affirmative action, not black people. It also serves to help disabled people of all races and genders who also have difficulty entering the job force. Yet you want to just focus on the policies as it pertains to black people, while making the claim that it’s those in support of said policies are racist? Please sit down, because the irony of that entire viewpoint is laughable. You’re already coming into this with a flawed argument. Also, affirmative action policies are not singular and are not typically applied the same way, if even at all, for admissions when it comes to government organizations, jobs, or colleges. You would have an argument, perhaps, if the country were literally punishing jobs for not being “diverse” enough, but quotas were considered unconstitutional for almost four decades, so legally speaking, they’re not enforced the way you seem to think they are. Much of these programs exist in the form of minority outreach programs that serve to increase minorities’ options in the workforce. They’re not advocating for quotas, merely for more of a presence.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=0

            Furthermore, we’ve had such special programs for decades because black people have historically had difficulty breaking into industries that white people took for granted, and even if you wanted to argue that “things have changed now,” not really when you consider that racial bias in hiring policies weighted against black people is still a thing. So if you feel insulted that people who have a distinct disadvantage in getting the same opportunities as you being given a boost just to get on your level, the problem isn’t with the policies, it’s with you.

            Therefore, I will agree to disagree.

          2. Ok, here is my rebuttal friend. Do ugly people have a disadvantage in the workplace…what about bald people? Arent some white people born into more advantage than other white people. I bave seen very few people advocating for poor redneck white people in texas, ( of which i am one). If we take care of institutional disadvantages for blacks do we do the same for ugly people? Why dont we just all shake hands and duke it out like equals? Then we can tell the meddling government to go jump in a lake!

          3. That’s false equivalence. “Ugly” and bald people aren’t constitutionally protected classes of people, so even if such bias existed, there’d be no standing to support them in that same way. Again, it’s not just institutional disadvantages faced by black people. You’re scapegoating them as the face of affirmative action when that’s not the case. It was not affected and created solely for our sake, nor are we even its biggest beneficiaries, so get over your butthurt, because reality does not agree with you. As for poor white people, they already have benefits and assistance programs in place for low income families, and for all races. It’s literally right here. And even when your own government shuts off its programs served to benefit people in your circumstances, you still have governors and advocates in your corner, such as here. Just because you don’t go out of your way to find the people and groups in your community who do support and advocate for you doesn’t mean they don’t exist. So hop off of us and how we too are being helped in some cases, and worry about who is fighting for your rights as well, because they are out there. Rebut away if you choose to, but the fact is that at all levels, black people still have a gap in wealth compared to white people, so even if you are part of the poor white class, poor black people have it even worse than you, which is why we get specific assistance programs to help us out and help us further narrow that gap.

          4. I am against constitutionally protected classes of people as it suggest some oeople are inferior which is offensive to me. I am for a constitution that protects all people equally.

          5. That’s cute but that doesn’t matter. These laws were specifically put in place for the precise purpose of ending discrimination against such groups in the first place. We needed to establish them to ensure minorities, older people, disabled people, pregnant women, etc. could work, because in the past, they were statistically discriminated against in the workforce and didn’t have the same rights or opportunities as able-bodied, younger, straight white men. Individual states also have the right to create and add their own protected classes as well, so I’m pretty sure you would already fall in at least one or several of those categories. It makes no sense, therefore, to be against a law that was designed to equally protect everyone, including you. That’s literally the point of establishing protected classes in the first place.

          6. Then i ask, will it ever be solved? If so how much longer will it take and what else will be required? Is communism the answer?

          7. I don’t know what it’ll take. I’m not a political or financial analyst. We just do what we can and see what works. Got nothing more of an answer than that.

          8. So in the South, it’s normal for people to be like “hello, how much money you make?” That is weird. But anywho, I’m a graduate student, so if anything, I’m still studying to get a job that’d help me earn a living. But I do work as a professional tutor for English at my school while studying as well. But anyway, what’s your point?

          9. In the south it is more like,” thanks for the dr. Pepper, by the way what line of work are you in?” The reason I want to know is I think it can explain motivation for things like tax policy, immigration, college funding, etc.

          10. Uh-huh, well again, that’s all irrelevant to the topic matter at hand. At first I thought I might find some common ground with you, but then I ran into your comment history and it turns out you are in fact a blatant racist. “White men have done more for civilization than anyone else?” Really? That’s a bold faced lie and demonstrates a complete lack of world history. Everyone has contributed their fair share of development leading up to what we have in the modern world, but you insist on boiling that down to white people doing all of that? And you wonder why the rest of us who aren’t stupid and ignorant want nothing to do with Trump supporters and have little issue cutting them out of our lives. Your views are completely ignorant of history, your arguments and understanding regarding institutional racism and how the country deals with it are not only flawed, you demonstrate no ability to look beyond your own experiences and limited understanding. I want nothing more to do with this conversation or your bigoted nonsense. You’re getting blocked.

          11. Ok, i was just answering a question posed on this blog. What race do you think has contributed most to society and progress?

  5. I think my first question would be: “Is that your considered opinion or do you just vote for Republicans?” If the latter, then no real conversation is possible.

    1. Then I’d point our how many leading Republicans have spoken out against Trump. Many of them aren’t even voting for their party’s candidate

      1. since i avoid/dismiss a vast swath of media (sometimes quite carelessly, i admit), my response would be either (a) wtf took them so long? or (b) who kept their dissension under wraps until now?

  6. I’m hanging at the pup. The bartender is a white female. And she says she is voting for Trump. I asked her why. Her response was ‘Because Hillary’. Go figure.

  7. For me it’s co-workers who are Drumpf supporters. And it seems to be mostly about 2nd Amendment issues (“they’ll take our guns!”) though I wonder about the racism thing, too.

    The one time I gently rebuked a work-friend about some Trump-thing he said I framed it as “that was a horrible thing to say and I *know* you’re a good guy but I don’t want to think you think horrible things” and that message was received with a thoughtful expression.

    That goes along with the awful suspicion that I (and many women) have about how men talk when they’re alone, Drumpf’s so-called locker room talk. I know my crew says things about everyone, including me, the only female. I just hope they’re not *actually* misogynistic racist bigoted assholes underneath it all.

    1. Some really do talk like that, but they’re the predators. I think we can tell who thinks it’s no big deal to not only talk like that but behave like that about and to women by how they vote. Misogyny is a big problem in the US.

    2. I just hope they’re not *actually* misogynistic racist bigoted assholes underneath it all.

      Here’s a protip: If you have to be worried that they might be actually misogynistic, racist, and bigoted assholes when they’re alone, especially when you have firsthand evidence of one of them spouting such rhetoric, chances are likely that he and the others are, in fact, misogynistic, racist, bigoted assholes.

  8. Driving out of my neighborhood, one must run a gauntlet of two houses across the street from each other who seem to be having a “dare to be stupid” contest. Both have the regular Trump/Pence yard signs. But that wasn’t enough. Both also have “Hillary for Prison” signs and one has a “Deplorable and Proud of It” sign. (It’s so tempting to add “So, you like to grab pussy??” to that one… Or paint the street between the houses with “Danger: Idiot Zone”. Washable paint.)

    If I were an employer, I’d love to have access to a service which had surveyed and recorded the yards with Trump signs, especially if they went above and beyond to display their stupidity.

    Also, signs for Clinton are being stolen. Well, they take the plastic part and leave the empty wire frame.

  9. My reason for voting Trump is that I do not trust Hillary. She has shown herself too inept, unable to handle classified materials, and she made a mess of the middle east. She has deceived too many times, and I don’t trust her. Her “memory issues” concern me…I think shes too sick, honestly. She had a concussion with post concussion syndrome…having something similar, I know shes not physically fit to lead the nation. I think Trump has many flaws. However, hes safer and better than she…so, to keep the nation from being endangered, I am voting Trump.

      1. What are we to conclude about the judgement of someone who wants to build a wall on the ENTIRE US/Mexican border? Even though aliens would easily be able to circumvent the wall by going through, over, around or under it.

          1. So you’re in favor of spending billions on a wall which will, at best, “make it harder” but will not actually stop illegals. Riiiiight. I see why you like The Donald.

          2. Making it harder to break law is a lofty goal; we have laws designed to thwart murder, rape…yet they still happen. Are THEY wastes of effort? We make it HARDER to commit many crimes people do…knowing some still will break law. And deterring is a good thing.

          3. People rarely leave stable, healthy countries and Mexico is neither. However much we like to complain about politics in the US, the fact is Mexico is a worse place to live. A wall won’t stop people who are already working on tunnels, you need to stop the source of the problem. So: want to stop the scary brown illegals from coming in? Help Mexico
            get its shit together WITHOUT violently overthrowing that country’s
            government and creating a power vacuum. Support Mexican efforts to improve the standard of living in Mexico so fewer Mexicans feel the need to flee their own country or apply for work visas. Provide more support to anti-cartel efforts. Punish American companies that would rather import cheap foreign labor than pay our own workers their proper wages (looking at you, construction and agriculture).

            Any one of these solutions would be more effective than building a wall and Trump (and every other Republican I’ve ever heard talking about Mexico) is interested in none of them because doing so means they can’t appeal to racists and nationalists..

          4. What does color have to do with it? Always racial with you liberals. Illegals are dangerous regardless of color…not screened for disease or criminal terrorist connections. I would rather use US money to help OUR people; we are not world cops, let Mexico handle its own, as you mentioned that nation.
            The border on the US Canadian side also needs strengthening; Muslim terrorists have come through from there. And other illegals.

      1. No, I do not really trust him, to be honest…but I have more trust for HIM than I do HER. Thus, my vote for the least of the evil.

        1. Your judgment is miserably bad. Everyone who has ever trusted him has been deceived. Tell me one thing he has ever done for anyone except himself and his family.

          Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills:

          http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

          At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

          Trump’s companies have also been cited for 24 violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act since 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage, according to U.S. Department of Labor data. That includes 21 citations against the defunct Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and three against the also out-of-business Trump Mortgage LLC in New York.

          1. Yes. I know. Members of my own family have worked for Trumps organization and were unpaid. What of it? Hillary is worse for the entire nation, and so, I overlook that Trump stiffed a few people.

          2. > Hillary is worse for the entire nation

            And bacon is healthier than apples.

            What color is the sky on your world?

          3. Look to the heavens in your own world; for you surely do not know reality if you think scandal plagued Hillary, Hillary the antagonist, is good for our nation…and planet.

          4. I do not care that hundreds “allege” he didn’t pay them. I know for a FACT his company did NOT pay my uncle…and, I don’t find that relevant in the context of fitness for Presidency. More important things matter to me, like foreign and domestic policies, state of the economy. And I trust Trump more than I do her. 24 violations in over 10 years? Sounds like a good record of ethics to me.

          5. I could find a homeless crack addict who would make a better president than the pathetic cretin offered by the Traitor Party.

          6. LOL…Obama and his words of division are clear in your posts. Different views aren’t traitorous…and liberals are not at all tolerant of diversity, are you lot? Clinton, however, IS a traitor to the nation as shown by her acts with that email server. And the Iran deal. Many others.

        2. That reasoning makes to me. If you don’t trust someone, how can having more trust for one person over another justifies not trusting that other person. There are no degrees of trust. Either you do or you don’t. Being that you, basically, don’t trust either candidate, you might be better off not voting for either one and support the down ballot of your chosen party. Voting for the “lesser of two evils” is a wasted vote. If you have listened to his rhetoric for past year and a half, you will see that he has no plans of substance and only cares for himself. Don’t waste your vote on him. Support your down ballot. This election is too important.

          1. Yes…the election IS too important. And I know one or the other will win. So, I will NOT waste my vote voting for the impossible. I will vote for the one who I think will do the least damage…and for me, that’s Donald Trump.

          2. He is allowed to sue anyone he wishes, for cause he thinks is worthy. That is not related to or relevant to ability to lead. In fact, if he protects the nation as he does himself, that’s a GOOD thing.

          3. There are degrees of trust. People can be trusted to various extent, and with different tasks, depending on the person and their ability. I trust her less than I do him…and think she is so bad, he is worthy of my vote…to keep her out of office.

        1. What has she done to earn a reputation to be untrustworthy? I am honestly curious because every time someone has made that claim to me they have proven to be misinformed or liars. Additionally pretty much every fact checking site shows Clinton to be MORE honest than most of her peers. While Donald Trump is possibly the most untruthful person to ever run for high office. Additionally pretty much everyone who has spent significant time with him, who isn’t an employee or family, has stated he has the emotional maturity of a toddler.

          Hillary- 51% mostly true
          http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

          Vs

          Trump- 15% mostly true.
          http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

          1. She lied about Benghazi. Landed under sniper fire? Recall that lie? The email scandal…those things alone are reason enough for me not to trust her. As we learn more about the Clinton Foundations “pay to play” program, I see how duplicitous she is; WikiLeaks has done well in exposing her scheming.
            Trump has been nowhere near as deceitful, and as for being an egotistical narcissist, she is as well….and I dislike her temper more. I dislike her support of Muslim nations and their oppression of women; her refusal to really address the threat within Islam. I dislike her anti Israel stance as well. With all Trumps faults, I see him as preferable; she has worse flaws.

          2. So basically you confirm what I thought. You are so warped with Clinton derangement syndrome you have become either a heads dupe of a inveterate liar. I would pity you if your vote did not have the potential to ruin my and my families livelihoods.

          3. A vote for Clinton is a vote to ruin US greatness…that harridan is as corrupt as she is vile, as inept as she is incompetent…and the depths of her ineptitude are limitless. Clintons lies harmed the nation.

          4. As I said your deluded feeblemindedness would elicit pity, were it not for the fact your vote could do so much damage.

          5. The email server.
            That is more than enough for me to distrust her…
            But then we have Benghazi and how she blamed it on a video.
            And then “landing under sniper fire”‘; a lie.
            MANY others, those suffice to show my point.

    1. Please remember that the 3 classified emails were not properly marked as classified. 3 out of thousands. She has withstood a grueling schedule this past year, and stood up to 11 hours of questioning in the Benghazi partisan witch hunt. She’s tough. Did you watch any of the debates? She’s sharp as a tack.

      Looks like you’ve been listening to Hannity, O’Reilly, Jones, et. al. She doesn’t have “memory issues.”

        1. Because she hasn’t been found guilty of anything, and boy, have they tried, spent millions of tax dollars on it, but still nothing. They are either remarkably inept or she’s incredibly smart and powerful, despite all those manly men – or she’s actually not guilty of anything. But your confirmation bias can’t begin to consider such a prospect.

          1. Hey lady, she destroyed 30,000 subpoenaed emails. Blatant criminal act. She is not in jail because our institutions are rottenly corrupt. How else can you explain her not being in jail?

          2. Hey man, do you never delete emails? Can you imagine the sheer number she must have gotten through the years? And that those emails were not deleted after they were subpoenaed, but well before? Did you know she asked for a secure personal account , but she was denied one? And that Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, W., and many others had private accounts for the same reason? They had personal lives too, and she needed access to emails on the go. But no one else’s lives have been picked apart with a fine toothed comb like hers has. Gee, I wonder why? Did you know that Trey Gowdy admitted that the Benghazi investigations were purely partisan-driven?

          3. Your pulling for the wrong side. Read the wikileaks, they are against everything they claim to stand for…fairness, openness, justice, WOMEN. Its the emperors new clothes, open your eyes. Did you see Donna Brazile brazenly lieing over and over again to megyn kelly? I am ashamed our country allows these people any power at all.

          4. Wikileaks… I don’t have time to find or read the thousands of illegally hacked emails, and who does? Buy I’ve read some that supposedly indicate something nefarious tied to HRC, but they have come to nothing, they prove nothing, they mean nothing. Assange IS a criminal, hiding in various foreign embassies to avoid being extradited to Sweden to stand trial for child rape. 17 different government agencies have connected the leaks to Putin’s government – and Trump thinks it’s a-ok for Russia to attempt to disrupt our democratic election processes???

            I’ve always liked and admired HRC, even when I didn’t agree with some of her positions. I can’t think of a single person with whom I agree on everything. I’m a realist. I know her record, her many accomplishments, and her admired reputation around the world. The US has a glaring misogyny problem.

            But Trump horrifies me, not just in his disregard for women as pieces of ass, dogs, pigs, etc., all his own words, and his pride in sexual assault, instead of treating women as human beings, as well as the horrible way he treats and speaks of almost everybody else! And then there’s his ignorance of what the job of President entails, ignorance about how our government works, the built in checks and balances between the states and federal government, the three branches of government… what he doesn’t know, but should, is endless and appalling. I haven’t even gotten to his record setting lying, great big whoppers. He can’t seem to stop himself. He’s a completely loose cannon. I honestly thought a year ago he was running as a lark, because he was bored and thought it would be fun to stir things up by being completely outrageous, just because he could. I never dreamed he’d get so far – then I got scared. He’s unhinged.

          5. Quite the opposite. What you’re doing isn’t working any more than it works for Drumpf. You are engaging in projection, a common logical fallacy. The person accuses someone else of the very behavior they (or in this case, Drumpf) exhibit, but refuse to acknowledge. It’s not uncommon with children, but when adults do it, it’s really strange. If you looked into Hillary Clinton’s record and had paid any attention at all, you’d realize that what you write is very far from accurate.

          6. Oh please. Juanita Broderick signed an affidavit in 1998 that Bill Clinton did not sexually assault her. Paula Jones first sold her story to the National Enquirer, then used her notoriety to pose for one of the skin magazines, I don’t remember which one. There was no evidence of any assault. Bill did have some affairs and dalliances (like Monica Lewinski, whose mother saved the infamous blue dress…) no allegations of assault there, just adultery. You know, like Drumpf, who will be facing trial for raping a 13 year old. It’s hard to find a male politician who hasn’t committed adultery!

            But think a minute – what kind of woman would be supportive of other women who had had sex with her husband? I’d want to kick them to the curb. It’s a natural reaction. Whose side would you expect her to be on? As I recall, she referred to Lewinsky as a tramp, or something like that. I would have too. I’m amazed she was able to patch it up with Bill. It must have been awful, but that’s her business.

            I got engaged, many years ago, right out of college, but luckily before I married the pond scum, found out what many other people already knew – there were lots of other women on the side. I did NOT feel charitable towards them! There was nothing worth trying to repair, no remorse on his side, and that was that. I miss him like I’d miss a disease. I know what it’s like. Seriously, dude, think. OF COURSE she wasn’t on the other women’s side! Durr.

          7. Bill is a slime and a sexual preditor. And why do evil women sleep with another womans husband. What is wrong with women in this country?

          8. What’s wrong with men who talk and act like Donald Drumpf, and the men and women who don’t see that he’s a dangerous sociopath? Those tacky women hurt those who actually have been sexually assaulted.

          9. Was ever ever tapping out messages in an airport bathroom? Or snorting crystal meth off a gay hooker’s ass?

          10. Wait a sec… weren’t you just saying HRC is bad because she did not side with those “evil women”?

          11. The dems think minorities are inferior. Tbe massive welfare system is evidence. The democrat lie is a beautiful one but it is still a lie. The end of the lie is widespread misery and despair.

          12. And you are delusional. Seriously how do you not drown in the shower every morning? Do you change your own nappy or do you have a nurse do it for you?

          13. Instead of holding her sexually predatory husband accountable, she threatened and bullied those poor women. She is no protector of women that’s for certain.

          14. It does not matter how the emails were obtained as far as public opinion is concerned. They reveal top to bittom corruption in the democrat party. Journalist always report illegally obtained info. Nothing new there. Does not however absolve the guilty party.

          15. Dude… you really don’t get it. This is espionage. This is a foreign government trying to interfere with our elections. It’s very serious, and Trump is encouraging it! That’s treason. Let’s look into the antics of the Republicans through the years, shall we? How well do you think they’d fare? Not well, especially with people like Karl Rove pulling the strings.

            Sorry to disjoint you, but the leaked emails just aren’t a big deal. How they were obtained is. Remember Nixon and Watergate? You probably weren’t born yet. Well, I do remember. Some of those guys went to jail for it. Nixon should have.

          16. I well remember watergate. The clintons are twice as bad as nixon, and they should all have gone to jail.

          17. I’m not used to having to write or speak on a third grade level. That you’re intimidated by intellectuals says a lot about you, and it ain’t good.

          18. Uh, sweetie pie, hate to tell you, but the Clintons weren’t involved in the Watergate break-in.

          19. Now a new fbi scandal. It never stops with this woman. She let our nations secrets be availabe to a sexual pervert. How did we go from giants like James Madison and John Adams to this pitiful state.

          20. I know you’re not into facts, but here are some anyway: not from Clinton’s server or any of her devices, and are from her friend Huma Abedin, son to be Weiner’s ex, but don’t have any connection to HRC. More nothing. Give it up.

          21. She is criminal. She is sloppy in her affairs. Her husband officiated the wedding of the pervert and huma. Bad people associate with bad people. Humas choice in a husband is proof enough of her bad judgement. Their is nothing good to report on these people.

          22. You don’t want our nation’s secrets to be available to a sexual pervert… and yet you’re voting for Trump.

          23. Yeah, raping 13-year-old girls and grabbing women by the pussy isn’t perverted at all, it’s just masculine…

          24. He apologized. What do you want him to do, slit his wrist? He is a billionaire playboy living in Manhattan. What were those “innocent” girls doing hanging around a known billionaire playboy? The Bible says, “none is good, no not one.”, that includes women and men.

          25. You misunderstand…i am not blaming trump, although some may see him as a victim, i am simply saying he is acting like a typical red blooded American billionaire playboy.

          26. It is what the emails reveal, corruption on an institutional scale, that is endangering our nation. Russia cannot hurt us, they are a nonfactor. The question is how did the highly sophisticated hillary/obama asministration let backwater russia punk them??

          27. Right…Trump is so close to bankruptcy that he has to rely on Putin’s friends to keep up the appearance of fabulous wealth and success; but it’s Clinton who’s been punked by the Russians? Puh-lease.

          28. You guys are the ones saying the loser russians did it. How could those losers outsmart hillary and Obama? Only because they run a sloppy ship…a corrupt criminal minded ship. The sad truth. Makes me sick.

          29. No i am saying hillary and obama are so stupid that they cannot even be trusted to have an email account. My 12 year old bas one. They are both simply dumb.

          30. Your 12-year-old has an email account, therefore Obama and Clinton can’t be trusted? Are you even bothering to think before banging on that keyboard?

          31. Exactly my point. My twelve year old has never had her emails hacked, unlike hillary and obama. Those two truly hate America.

          32. Did Hillary’s server get hacked? I know US Government servers got hacked, and DNC servers got hacked, but I never heard of Hillary’s server getting hacked. You got a cite for that? If not, then maybe you should admit her private email server wasn’t such a stupid idea after all.

          33. Having a server in someones bathroom is like letting the employees of the treasury department puting all of the country’s revenue in their personal checking account. It is so embarassing i blush thinking about it.

          34. Gee, so sorry we offended your delicate sensibilities. I guess that’s why you can’t be more specific about why it was so horribly wrong…should I get you some smelling salts?

          35. Then why wasn’t she prosecuted for it? And why was Colin Powell never even mildly criticized for doing the same thing?

          36. What a novel idea…no law and order. Sounds like fun, especially for women and old folks. By not prosecuting them we are giving up some of our freedom, keep it up and none of us will be safe.

          37. You’re aware that Hillary is hardly the first to have her own? Powell and Rice did, and many other government officials do, so why single out Clinton? Because that’s what partisan witch hunters do.

          38. It’s not illegal, just unethical. We generally don’t, or we’re not supposed to, try prosecute someone for something that is not a crime. If someone physically assaults you, you can prosecute them, since assault is illegal. If someone says your baby looks like a half-rotted hamster, you can’t prosecute them. It’s not illegal to say something, no matter how disgusting, because it’s unethical, not illegal. There are certain kinds of speech that are illegal, such as inciting violence, especially towards a government official, or yelling fire in a crowd, when there is no fire. Perjury, apparently only if one is a Democrat, is also illegal, such as lying about cheating on your wife, which is not illegal, unless you’re lying to a judicial figure. Yet adultery is not illegal.

          39. In the U.S. We must require a higher standard for President. Both of these candidates are questionable, but hillary is criminal, and even democrats know in their heart it is true. Dems should do what is right for the country and reject hillary. It is better to lose an election than to lose this wonderful country.

          40. No, for the last goddamned time, you are wrong. Trump is not “questionable,” he’s completely unfit for any office, and despite millions of tax dollars spent and multiple partisan investigations, they’ve failed to find her guilty of breaking any law. All those men, and a few women, must be incredibly incompetent, and she’s the smartest, most powerful person ever, or – get ready for it – she actually ISN’T the criminal you misogynistic, deplorable asshats so desperately want her to be.

            I have run out of my last vestige of patience with you. Trying to reason with you is about as pointless as playing chess with a pigeon. I’m done with you.

          41. You and i are both the same. Politically unchangeable. Our basis of morality is our difference. To me she is a globalist and trump is a nationalist. I want a president sold out to the home team.

          42. Hillary and obama have set back women and blacks at least 40 years with their incompetence. Maybe longer.

          43. Read my posts again if you forgot. All intelligent people agree she is a dangerou criminal in bigh office.

          44. Right… that must be why almost all the major newspapers have endorsed Clinton, which is unprecedented, evenones that have never endorsed a Democrat before, or endorsed any candidate. They must know something you don’t. 😉

          45. “Losers…” Holy sludge, you even talk like Trump. Putin is no dummy. He’s unscrupulous, and acts as if he’s still part of the KGB.

          46. I agree putin is twice as smart as hillary that is quite obvious, but with the resources of th U.S. , behind her she should have him on a leash, yet he runs circles around her.

          47. Russia is no backwater. It’s huge, although not as big as the corner Soviet Union, it’s still dangerous. This isn’t “punking.” It’s a foreign country attempting to interfere with another’s election processes. Put simply, in deference to you, that is bad, very, very bad.

          48. > to stand trial for child rape.

            Not child. And the condom broke and he kept going. Some ‘rape’.

          49. I stand corrected. I’ve gotten confused who is accused of raping who. Yes, it looks like Assange’s accusers were not children.

        2. BTW, you’ve asked me a couple of direct questions on the Prayer In School discussion, but you’ve locked me (and others maybe? ) out of being able to reply. I’m glad to reply, but if you’ll kindly take the lock off, I’ll answer you.

          Edit: i extend my apologies. I just noticed the discussion is now closed… 🙂

          1. I would like to address your response on the Prayer in Schools thing seeing as I never got the chance to retort.

            Number One: You must not have read ALL of the posts I left on the page or you would have never responded in the manner you chose to do so.

            Number Two: I stated SEVERAL times that other religions have the same rights to hold student organized prayer WITHOUT discrimination or judgement, Yet, they ALL do NOT exercise that First Amendment right and CRY discrimination.

            Number Three: I do not believe that parents are pushing their kids to push religion in schools. It seems more and more every day it is the young people that are crying out to have student-led organized prayer. Maybe it is time we, as parents, shut our mouths, get off of our soap boxes, and PAY ATTENTION to those cries.

            Since prayer was all but banned from ALL school functions, The Pledge of Allegiance being stopped because “Under God” is in it, there has been more homicidesuicide killings, mass shootings like the one in Aurora, a place where I used to live and have watched many a movie from that theater, and let us not forget Columbine.

            Every one of these shootings happened AFTER prayer was taken out of the hands of those in power within the school systems!!!

            Please, for just the peace of mind, explain why we are to stand idly by when the vast majority of the consensus of our children is to keep Judea Christian prayer, not only part of their personal lives, but also fight to keep it in school? ALL of this started because of an Atheist family throwing a tantrum because their kid felt “Pressured” into praying simply due to not wanting to stand out. I think if that kid wasn’t strong enough to say no on their own, then I would question just how strong that kid felt what THEIR parents were SHOVING THEIR NON-BELIEFS DOWN THEIR THROATS!!!

            The bottom line is this. You cannot take away part of what this Country was founded upon without compromising the Foundation upon which it stands. We are weakened as a country because we are too busy bickering amongst ourselves and not paying attention to the imminent danger that is all too quickly approaching us. Prime example: This upcoming election. Either way it goes, our country is screwed!!! I’m scared for this country. We are about to lose everything and there will be nothing we will be able to do about it.

            There are so many people who lived and died under the United States flag and, if you take away ANY part of what this country meant to those who shed their blood, you are saying they all died for this country in vein.

          2. Well, no, I didn’t read every single thing you or everyone else wrote on the discussion – that would have taken a rather long time. I think it’s fair to state that most people don’t do that, including you. And don’t you think responding instead of retorting might be a bit more polite?

            Children generally don’t stumble upon religious beliefs by accident; someone teaches them, usually indoctrinating them from the time they are old enough to string a few sentences together, like I was, although it wasn’t any fundamentalist form. I wasn’t born yesterday- Its clear where this is coming from. Right wingers, fundamentalist preachers, frothing, flailing, railing about this very issue ad nauseum.

            Why organized prayer? Why not keep it personal and private, like Jesus told you to do? He was (allegedly) pretty clear about that.

            The majority in the US, certainly not a vast number (non religious are over 20% and growing), are some form of Christian, but that doesn’t mean that they have some special right to impose their religion on everyone else. It just doesn’t work that way. It was not set up that way, and it certainly was not founded on religious principles, despite what you may have been told. You will not find any reference to any god in the Constitution. However, you will find many quotes from the founders on what principles the US government actually was founded upon, and it wasn’t Christianity, but principles of The Enlightenment, and the philosophies of Rousseau, Voltaire, etc.

            From The Treaty of Tripoli, 1791, begun by George Washington, written by John Adams and ratified unanimously by a Senate still half-filled with signers of the Constitution, this treaty announced firmly and flatly to the world that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

            Correlation does not equal causation. Mandated prayer in public schools was ended around 1962, as I recall, somewhere around there. Ah, the good old days when women were blocked from many colleges, professions, jobs, there was widespread, institutionalized discrimination against pretty much everyone but white, heterosexual, Christian men. That all began to change too. We were just supposed to accept our lot and above all shut up about it. Nope. Not anymore.

            Who are the perpetrators of most of these mass killings in the US? White men, mostly Christian. Can we apply correlation equals causation in this case too?

          3. I must disagree… Upon investigating these mass shootings and homicidesuicide students, the vast majority did not profess ANY type of religious beliefs to any of their friends who, when interviewed, were dumbfounded when they were told their friend had professed some kind of religious beliefs just prior to taking their own life.

            As per the Constitution and it not mentioning God, the Constitution does mention God. Article VII reads, “done in Convention … the Seventeenth Day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America.

            As per the Declaration of Independence: “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself?

            “Nor may any other law override it, nor may it be repealed as a whole or in part… Nor is it one thing at Rome and another at Athens, one thing today and another tomorrow, but one eternal and unalterable law, that binds all nations forever.” Of “Nature’s God,”.

            “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

            The last reference to God asks for his divine protection in our revolutionary course of action. “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”

            Your history was just derailed as I have given you undeniable proof both the Constitution AND the Declaration of Independence not only use the word “God” or “Lord” but also uses direct references to a supreme Deity.

          4. The D of I had no legal standing for us; it was a list of grievances against King George III, explaining why they believed they had a right to separate from England. It is not a legal document. Besides, surely you knew the writer, Jefferson, was only a deist at best.

            “In the year of our Lord” was just his they spoke back then, vernacular if you will. It had no lethal standing, really didn’t mean anything. The government was set up to be and remain neutral regarding religion. The founders knew what a mess theocracies in Europe had made of their governments, and they didn’t want that. Someone seems to have been teaching you things that are historically, demonstrably not true.

          5. That may have been the way they spoke but you can’t say that it wasn’t sincere. Furthermore, had they believed it would have invoked any kind of negative feelings from anyone, they wouldn’t have allowed it on the Constitution.

          6. That’s like saying the use of the word “Thursday” in a document is proof that the writers of said document worshipped Thor

          7. Trotting out how people commonly dated things is a pretty flimsy argument, and falls flat on its face. Read what the founders wrote, and it becomes clear they wanted no part of religion in government.

          8. Just for fun, are you by any chance Norwegian, and if so, could you translate a mild epithet my grandfather used to say?

          9. He would say something that sounded like “oh fee”, and sometimes “oh feeda” and “oh feess” which would earn him a scolding look from my grandmother (spelled phoenetically). I’ve looked it up, and can’t find anything. Maybe it’s some kind of dialect.

          10. It could have been a version of ‘Fy faenden’, sometimes pronounced something like ‘fee faan’. It means ‘Fie to the devil’ which seems very mild to us but is deeply shocking in Norway. Your grandfather’s ‘Oh fees’ might have been an incomplete expletive interrupted by grandma’s glare!
            (I’m English but lived in Norway many years ago and learned a little of the language. I only ever heard men use this expletive, never a woman!)

          11. It’s about as sincere as when an atheist, like me, for instance, says or writes “oh my fucking god” – it doesn’t follow that I must therefore believe in the existence of a supernatural entity.

          12. The very reason they wanted separation was because of the Protestant movement. They wanted to get away from the persecution of the Roman Catholic Church(which, if you have read up on how Romans come to serve the Judea Christian God in the first place was because of Nero( a polytheistic believer by default from Rome) getting himself in a check-mate position and prayed to the christian God for deliverance from his foes. History states that Fire fell from the skies and decimated his enemies. At THAT moment, Nero(who was a nasty ruler)VOWED that anyone that spoke of any other God he would kill them, and their families, thus bringing about the beginning of Catholicism.) and wanted a fresh start in this new land. No one can argue that fact. The fact that the word “LORD” appears in the constitution is because of respect for their God and Saviour and not just because that is how they spoke back then.

            If you’re gonna change ONE WORD of the Constitution, you might as well null the rest of it while you’re at it. If you don’t like what it stands for, I’m sure there are SEVERAL countries that would take you in.

          13. Oh my flopping dog. That’s just too many levels of crazy, and it’s already been a long day. NO. The United States is not a theocracy. No matter how you keep trying, it’s not going to be. We’re not going to let you. It ain’t happening. If you want to try living under a theocracy, try Saudi Arabia. There aren’t many left. If you want full on theocracy – to be more accurate, it’s a necrocracy, since they worship Kim Il Sung – North Korea might be to your tastes.

          14. Saying I am crazy and a flopping dog is getting close to name calling.

            I have read a LOT of the secular aspects in regards to the US Constitution, The Declaration of Independence, The Pledge of Allegiance, and there is a realization that when Presidents are Sworn in, they place their left hand on the Holy Bible and raise their right hand. The “So help me God” has been completely optional but, in 2009, Barack Obama, himself, utters the four extra words, “So help me God”.

            Having said that, whether or not he felt obligated is immaterial. Point in fact: Whether or not the Constitution was written as non-religious based as possible, Article VII of the US Constitution states: The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.

            Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

            This doesn’t give an exact acknowledgment of religion but, it does give fact that, though most may have opposed or didn’t agree with it 100%, they all still had some sort of understanding there was at least a need to recognize the beliefs of Europe and put In the Year of our Lord as a means to show respect of the religious beliefs of the times.

            The Declaration of Independence(As I stated earlier, actually gives five references, though a lot of Evangelical Ministers pride this, As was pointed out by you is not a legal document, most Christians would fight and try and throw as many non-historically based documents as possible to try and say they won the argument. I may be Christian, but I have also studied MANY other religions, including Satanism, Wicca, and non-religious aspects called Atheism.

            I see where I may have pre-boasted because I was in such a hurry and only half paying attention to what all I typed because I was working on computers but, again, I say, If Article VII has the word “Lord” it shows there was, indeed, a belief of SOME type of Deity. Is this something that can be agreed upon?

          15. Do you know what a euphemism is? Jesus crust on a raft… I didn’t call you a flopping dog, it was a euphemism for “oh my f’ing god”, meant to express astonishment.

            Regarding the rest – I’m not going to repeat myself. You got shortchanged in your education. Someone’s been filling your head with doodoo.

          16. Correlation does not equal causation.

            One could also point out that removing people being forced to do fucking mentally deranged mandatory christian prayers is a leading factor in the reduced overall crime rate.

            But then again, you have a persecution card to jerk off to, don’t you?

          1. Einstein said once that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I guess GOPres are insane. Or are they just stupid?

      1. actually its a bit more than 3…slightly more than ONE HUNDRED. And Hillary showed she hasn’t a clue on how to handle sensitive data, she didn’t even go for mandated training. I watched the debates…and shes dull as a butter knife. I recall how often she claimed SHE cant remember, that her brain “short circuited” and shes too sick to lead. She does indeed have memory issues…her own people confirm that, in the WikiLeaks email.

          1. Oh gawd… funny, but not funny. My brain hurts. There’s early voting in my area, and I’m voting blue all the way.

          2. I did. It looks like Comey is violating the Hatch Act with this latest stunt, and should be fired at the very least. Interfering with elections is a felony.

          3. It looks like Comey is honest and upfront; had he NOT said anything, the violation would have been in him covering for her BIG corrupt ass.

          4. Funny, Comey isn’t saying anything about Trump’s illegal actions. And it’s still nothing. Comey is being censured. Pay attention.

          5. Why should Comey say anything about Trump’s alleged illegal actions? NOT in his province. The people prosecuting Trump’s alleged cases would be the ones to speak regarding them. Clinton was his purview, and Comey failed to do his job.

          6. Of course, because the FBI is only supposed to be concerned with what Democrats might be doing, never Republicans. Got it.

          7. Foreign countries hacking into US government servers and trying to interfere in US elections is absolutely within the bounds of the FBI.

    2. “There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep who beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized.”

      –– James Randi

      This applies as well to Republican voters, 99.9% of whom consistently vote against their own best interests.

      Example: The Food Stamp Capital of the U.S. is WHITE and REPUBLICAN

      In spite of the prevailing stereotypes and assumptions about who uses SNAP Food Stamp benefits the most in the United States, the highest usage is not in Compton, Queens, nor the South Side of Chicago. Instead, a city that is 99.22% white and 95% Republican comes in the lead. Owsley County, Kentucky is a community of about 5,000, residents earning the lowest median household income in the country outside of Puerto Rico, according to the U.S. Census.

      Strangely enough, the residents of Owsley County are almost entirely Republican, in spite of the traditional opposition to the Food Stamp program by the GOP. In fact, just last November, residents of Owsley saw their SNAP benefits reduced drastically as a result of Republican opposition to funding the program.

          1. Trump is not woman hating, and her lies matter far more than anything he has been in error on. SHE has harmed the nation. Trump is also not racist, and has been given accolades for his work in inner cities.

          2. Drumpf is a shitstain on humanitys underwear. He is a proven mysoginist and rascist. This would be the lying, crooked dirtbag whose main charity expense was buying a picture of himself? The guy is so transparently a douche. The emperors new clothes illustrated how the masses can be fooled but I never thought that so many US citizens would be so blinded by delusional political allegiances they would consider voting for this clown. Clinton is at least qualified to do the job, christ if you consider what she did ‘harm’ you really don’t have a clue what havoc a Drumpf presidency would do both to the USA and the rest of the world. I hope for all our sakes Drumpf looses and is consigned to the political wilderness.

          3. He won. Stocks are soaring, banks are booming. The ONLY whiners are liberals…Trump? A woman hater? HA! Trump is the first male of a Fortune 500 Company to have hired a woman as a CEO for his companies, the one who gave the first design job for a skyscraper to a woman. He hires women, and pays them equally…Clinton Foundation cant claim THAT. Trump shows in his acts he is in no way a woman hater. Professionally and personally, he does love the ladies.

          4. Wish I lived on the same planet as you Rebecca. Bit early to be gloating but that is the infantile approach a trumpster would adopt I guess. Drumpf – Anti environment, climate warming denialist, demagogue, parochial, nysoginistic, sociopathic….yep I reckon things will go backward pretty quick when Mango Man takes over. Perhaps if he grabbed you ‘by the pussy’ you might change your right wing, pig ignorant views………..

    1. All competitors must operate under the laws and regulation the government requires. H-2B visas are used by his coompetition so he must use them to compete. Now, outlawing them for everyone would solve the problem, and all intelligent people agree with that.

  10. There’s one thing I can say about my 2nd Amendment right and it is this. HRC wants to take my guns away. She will NEVER win that war. She will never convince the American people she will be able to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals and, we, as Americans, will NOT allow our families to have to live in fear.

    1. If you are a criminal or mentally deranged, no, you shouldn’t have a gun. She wants to close the gun show loophole so that only those who can hopefully be trusted with guns can have them. She wants background checks to be universally applied and followed. If you’re afraid you can’t pass a background check, then you shouldn’t have access to them anyway.

      Who are you so afraid of? If you’re so afraid, you probably shouldn’t have access to guns. It makes you untrustworthy, jumpy and dangerous.

      1. Wrong. I do not fear any man. That still doesn’t mean I can’t protect my family from someone trying to break into my house knowing someone IS home. I would only use deadly force if their intentions were to cause physical harm to my family.

        I hold 2nd degree Black belts in Tae Kwondo, Ninjitsu, and cannot tell you my level in Kung Fu as I was taught by true masters as they don’t believe in belts or degrees. I forge my own weapons and my swordsmanship is in the elite.

        HRC doesn’t want to audit the 2nd Amendment, she wants to completely remove it from the Constitution. Her words spoken in private to members of Congress.

        As far as a background check, I just purchased yet another firearm to add to my collection.

        1. You’re delusional, and you’re much more likely to accidentally or purposefully shoot a family member than a statistically unlikely intruder.

          1. Not likely. Everyone in my family have been trained on gun safety and we have yet to have ANY misfires or any other incidents because they have all seen what guns can do. They also know that taking a life is permanent and cannot be given back. Living in a rural area where break-ins are prone to happen, it would be wise to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

          2. Well, seeing as I keep ALL of my firearms in a floor mounted safe with 1″ thick surgical steel rods in the door and is fireproof, AND my wife and myself are the only ones with the right means to get into it, I can say with most certainty that if one of the family members accidentally gets shot, it will not be in the house. Each firearm has it’s own lock and each lock is either a combination or a key lock and no two key locks are the same. They have a visual method of knowing that firearm cannot be fired without those locks being removed and the firearm loaded. That is when the majority of your misfires and accidental shootings occur,

            Maybe it would serve you well to watch Stop The Threat on the Outdoor channel. It gives you so many different views as to whether or not the homeowner needed to use lethal force vs being able to detain the intruder without have any kind of incident.

            The very least, a person seeing you are armed when they are breaking into your house will have the sense enough to RUN!!

            The very worst is that the other party tries to overtake you or is armed and a firearms battle is imminent then that person or persons is putting you in a position where it is either them or you.

            Given that circumstance, if it were you, what would be your course of action if you had someone that just broke into your house and your family is in imminent danger? The fastest ANY officer or police response is an average of ten(10) minutes, Could you defend yourself and your family for 10 minutes until law enforcement arrived without a firearm?

          3. It does beg the question what good those guns are in a locked-down safe in case of the home invasion he’s so prepared for.

          4. The safe has an auto unlock bracelet that allows access to my guns in less than three seconds and can have two guns loaded in another two seconds. Since you would basically have to have a door ram, which would get the attention to all the nosey nancys that have noting better to do, or they would HAVE to break the windows which would take more than ten seconds to break. unlock, lift, and climb thru.

            I have a State Trooper that lives two blocks over and a volunteer deputy sheriff that lives right across the street. Both of my neighbors own BIG dogs(and a bunch of ankle biters) so I don’t think a home invasion is likely but, given the fact we live in an area that got hit by tornadoes March 31st, again, people resort to their survival instincts and start pillaging and mass chaos ensues. At which point would you like to address first?

          5. Nope, that answers every hypothetical I have about what your plan is for when the Daleks show up. Feel free to keep blustering about how heavily armed your neighbourhood is and your history of facing danger, though, it might help you intimidate someone on the Internet and going by your conversation with Karen, getting a chance to reel all this off in comment threads might actually be a goal for you. Iunno. Don’t expect any help from me, though. Rope burns on the neck tend to be discouraging when it comes to games of My Life’s More Hazardous Than Yours, so I’m gonna sit this one out.

          6. Northmissedherconfused – wow, with all your previous blather about marshal arts, your fortress neighborhood and home I can’t tell if you are taking the piss or if you are genuinely mentally ill, either way you are certainly confused. To the rest of the world the US obsession with firearms and gun rights is bullshit. Statistics indicate that in a home where guns are present, there is far more chance that someone innocent will get shot accidentally than there is of some neer do well being repelled or stopped. Compare US gun deaths to any other similar western society and the US is off the charts in comparison. From your diatribes you are exactly the kind of person that shouldn’t be legally entitled to own a peashooter, never mind any kind of firearm.

          7. Sounds to me like a lot of the loudmouthed teaturd cheeseheads I used to live around. Big mouth, small brain. Or an ego trying to compensate for somethin….

          8. I really wish you would learn the proper use of the word “Marshal” as, this shows you have the intellect of a four year old. The CORRECT word to have been used, in your rants about my mental status, was “Martial” arts. By the way, since we’re on the topic of intellectual vocabulary, your use of profanity simply proves you LACK the intellect to be able to verse yourself in a true, and simple post.

            You can ALL judge me but, the realization IS, YOU have pitted a battle of wits with someone whom, by the standards of MY peers, has the literary vocabulary of a dictionary. And to say your post was just an opposition of a state of mind that is incomprehensible, by you, is truly an understatement.

            One might say you have the mentality of a chimpanzee but, knowing the have three more sets of chromosomes than humans, they would actually be paying you a compliment.

          9. Oh this is fun! Perhaps you should have called yourself North Misanthropic. You are amazing, but not for the reasons you doubtless think. I suspect your ‘peers’ are knuckle draggers, hence contributing to your over inflated opinion of yourself. If you judge intellect or mental impairment by the standards of hastily written posts, where do you think your badly wriiten second paragraph places your meager thought processes on an intellectual scale? There is no evidence of any inherently superior intellect in your badly written diatribes Resorting to caps is especially sad. Do us all a favour and seek professional help.

          10. Your Grammar is meager, at best. Your efforts in trying to use BIG words is quite the anecdote.
            BTW, I GIVE PROFESSIONAL HELP!!!

            I hate the fact I have to “LAMENIZE” the majority of what I write because this feeble attempt to “degrade” me is your opinion only. Though you are entitled to it, the more you say, the more you show your ignorance.

          11. By the way, since we’re on the topic of intellectual vocabulary, your use of profanity simply proves you LACK the intellect to be able to verse yourself in a true, and simple post.

            Actually…no.

            Multiple Studies Confirm People Who Swear Often, Stay Up Late, and are Messy — Have High IQ’s

            In other words, what you tried to claim is basically a lie.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5120af44e7269757ed252df4573f1765f42522113071f82223f8f44cfbe669c4.gif

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/52a8116aa2faebee3d42e92c47942da34a471319df40d4b707f17871ac27afba.jpg

          12. I did not make this post. My account was hacked and I am trying to get the issue rectified. I am sorry you took offense. You do realize, even though I didn’t make this post, your response is unfounded and I see your need to use other people’s material as a weakness.

          13. Sorry, Doc, but I don’t suffer from anything other than the realization that people, by default, are evil by nature. Look at Jodie Aires and what she did to Travis Alexander. I watched that trial from beginning to end already knowing she was guilty as sin itself yet, NO ONE wanted to hit her with the death sentence. Two hung juries and it’s an automatic life in prison without parole. If anything, I believe the Defense Attorney from Arizona should have run for president!!!

            In that trial, they talked about the fightflight syndrome EVERY human being has, as a means for instinctual survival. Just because I choose to own a firearm does not mean I am a paranoid schizophrenic. Maybe you need to realize that when it comes down to basic human survival, let’s say, after this election we are invaded by another country. When those, who have invaded this country, come to take and do what they want to with you and your family, then put you in front of a firing squad, you are stating that you would deal with that kind of abuse, NOT fight for your country, and go down without a fight…

            I recognize and appreciate your standpoint. It is quite clear you have never been exposed to any threat upon your life nor have you had to endure making a life or death decision. In that regard, it’s probably best if you don’t own a firearm.

          14. Are you fucking kidding me? Major snowstorm on a workday – take my chances on a road where I can barely see, or go into work anyway? I did take a terrible chance on that once, because my boss threatened to fire me if I didn’t come in, so the normal 1 hour drive took 3, and I white-knuckled it all the way. I was the only one in my department to show up, even my boss didn’t turn up – she got stuck – and 20 minutes after I arrived, they closed the company and sent everyone home… I was pissed off. It was 20 years ago, but I made a decision that day to never again risk my life for a non life threatening reason.

            A man was following me on a dark sidewalk in NYC, getting closer, and I hear him start taking to me… the subway station is close, but do I flag down a taxi instead, if one comes along? A police cruiser drove by, and I flagged him down instead, and my stalker took off.

            Just two examples out of many. We make survival decisions quite frequently, but I still won’t own a gun. If I’d pulled a gun on the man, I might be dead now, in prison, who knows. The statistics are not in gun enthusiasts’ favor.

          15. I’ve had to drive those white-out snow days into work and from work where it takes 2 hours to go 30 miles. I’ve been in that situation. I was also refraining from using any foul language out of respect. I have been tactically trained on how to use my firearms and I have done so with my family. I also recognize there is going to be no end to this as, seeing as we live in different parts of the country. I believe it would be honorable to say there will never be any common ground and our up-bringing is too different for us to agree on any aspect.

          16. LOL… Yup… I can’t argue that point. I lived in Denver for about 3 years. The first winter I spent there was when it snowed over ten feet of snow in just over three days. That was 2003. I can relate to the snow aspect.

          17. And exactly how do these guns protect you in a home invasion scenario? Unless you sleep with it loaded under your pillow you would never get to it. or do you figure the people standing at the foot of the bed will let you saunter over to your safe, open it, remove the trigger lock and all? You gun humpers are ridiculous.

          1. I’m not afraid of HRC taking my guns away because it simply just will not happen. You can BUZZ about it all you want but that will not change my outlook on being able to put meat on the table from natural resources. Seeing as I am partially disabled, yes I see my gun as a resource for providing for my family first and protecting my family second.

          2. So if you’re not afraid of Hillary taking your guns away, then why are you raving so much about Hillary taking your guns away?

          3. I don’t like Trump either. My partial disability is due to having been involved in a MVA that has caused several issues with my spine. The disability is Spinal Stenosis and Radiculopathy with narrowing of the Intervertebral Foramen(where the nerves come out from between the vertebrae) and, well, you get the gist of what I am saying. I still worked my backside off in the food industry for many years(10+) after I had to stop building houses.

          4. I agree that it will not happen. Because it’s an insane right-wing conspiracy that any left-leaning politicians want to take everyone’s guns away for decades, and it’s never once happened or even come close to happening.

        2. Interestingly, you miswrote Tae Kwon Do. What Federation did you get your belts from? What’s the first thing you do in palgwae Ee jang?

          I think you’re kind of full of it.

          1. Actually, I didn’t write anything. Someone hacked my account and am still getting responses to stuff I had no dealings with. I am very sorry you feel that way. I read the post and, as per WIKI, it can be spelled correctly either way… just depends on where you are, Geographically speaking.

            This is the first time I’d had my email stuff hacked this far. I am changing my password for this sight so I won’t have this problem again. I have talked with one of the MODS and am trying to get the last week+ regressed. It is doubtful but all I can do is just wait until the strings close out.

            On a different note, the CORRECT spelling is Palgwe Ee Jang; it helps one to find joy, knowing they are in control of their future, and it is loosely translated into “Southeast Youngest Daughter”. The movements should be performed Knowing that man has limitations.

            Anyheuw, no more trying to clear up what this hacker did thru my account. Am sorry you feel I am full of it. Wished we could have talked on something else without already having had tempers flared.
            May you have a blessed day.

          2. So that wasn’t you bragging about black belts and stuff, but someone posing as you? Anyone associated with WTF should know better than to brag about it. They aren’t supposed to; it’s against the code. I am not ashamed to admit I only got as far as blue belt (yes, w/ WTF) and had to drop out due to chronic tendonitis. Husband and son are still associated with it, and I’m very proud of them – so I know a poser when I see one.

          3. I may have studied a little bit of Tae Kwon Do and was taken under the wing of a Ninjitsu instructor and was shown certain techniques, the LAST thing I would do would be to brag about it. My Tae Kwon Do instructor recognized my potential during my first class and opted to show me certain techniques. Had I not been injured in a school bus accident, I would have been able to actually fight in tournaments and LEGALLY obtain belt status.

            What troubles me from all of the posts is that it almost seemed like this person knows certain aspects of my life. That is what is so un-nerving. Irregardless of who did it, I work on computers and have an IP sniffer program that is running a trace, using specific static IP algorithms that reverse the path of the posts, and have had it bounce from Dallas to Colorado to Newark NJ to Arizona to MS. Since I have resided in 3 of the 5 states, at some point, I am gonna let the IP Sniffer continue to run until it bounces back to the same server(state) then I am gonna run a VERY old program originally created by symantec that will give me a specific name, address, and location via global map.

            I am sorry for any trouble this person may have tried to stir up. Thank you for your understanding. Username and password were both changed.

    2. Yeah, right, Hillary’s gonna take away your guns any day now. Just like Obama was going to take them away, any day now…

    3. HRC wants to take my guns away.

      The Right promised that Obama was going to take our guns! So, no matter who wins on the 8th, all the guns will be gone by January 20th.

    4. Her position on gun control is practically identical to Obama’s. All the right wing freaking out about Obama taking away your guns, and what has it come to? Did he?

    5. No, she doesn’t. Unless you’re declaring yourself to be a terrorist or a mass murderer.

      Are you a terrorist? Or a mass murderer?

      1. I am a law abiding citizen who has stood elbow to elbow with local, state, and federal law enforcement. I have volunteered my time, effort, tools, clothing, food, etc.. to those who have gone thru terrible tragedies and help with the cleaning up after natural disasters.

        Law Enforcement officials know they can call on me and I will put MY life on the line to ensure the safety and tranquility of my fellow Americans.

        The question still remains. Why has HRC lied to the American people about her intentions in allowing more and more people to immigrate into our country when the streets are already filled with homeless people who are native born? Why won’t she focus on making America a country that has no severe poverty level that, at current, looks like a third world country?

        If you think for one moment all of the money YOU have paid in SS over the years, you have busted your backside for, is going to be there when it’s your time to retire, you are in for rude awakening.

        Our Government is more corrupt than ever. They are also money hungry and don’t care where the money comes from as long as they get theirs. THEIR greed is going to become OUR downfall and America will no longer exist.

        1. And yet, you’re opposing any effort to keep weapons out of the hands of terrorists and mass murderers. What does that make you, then?

          A terrorist enabler? A mass murderer apologist?

          1. I do oppose in keeping firearms(weapons could be defined as just about anything… please make sure you keep to specifics) from criminals. All of the digging you are doing to get a blunted comment from me when you need to look for those who SELL firearms to “Terrorists and Mass Murderers” as they are the ones who do the supplying, is dedicated but, nonetheless, futile.

          2. You mean the legal gun dealers who sell firearms at gun shows and such? Without conducting background checks?

            Yep. Mass murderer enablers, too. And terrorist supporters. Just like you.

            How do you sleep at night? Doesn’t the nozzle of that Glock hurt being so far up your rectum?

          3. I am talking about those who obtain firearms, illegally, and sell them to other countries. To say I support ANYONE ,you so eagerly call an enabler, couldn’t be any further from the truth. You can honestly sit there and try, feebly, to turn my words against me and resort to such gruesome accusations and analogies, yet, you’ve not shown one ounce of common sense. How bad does it hurt with your head being shoved so far up YOUR rectum?

          4. Other countries? Who the fuck cares about other countries. The second amendment does not apply to gun sales to other countries. Moving the goalposts, much?

            What I’m talking about is preventing terrorism and mass murder right here in the good old USA. Aided and abetted by you and your ilk.

            Try to keep on topic, m’kay?

          5. Again, there are the accusations without causation… Terrorism doesn’t only exist in America… It exists EVERYWHERE… And again, to remind you of your short-minded thinking is clouding your judgement on the generalized ideal you just can’t admit defeat, One would have thought common sense would have given you reasonable agreement, but you would much rather point your finger at someone else when it is you who really feeds the fuel to the “proverbial” firearms getting put into the wrong hands. Go ahead… admit you are responsible. You are so riddled with guilt, your lashing posts show you need professional help.

            And on a technicality, it was you who decided to start this breaking off the topic so why don’t YOU stay on topic, Mr. Mackey!!

          6. Again…preventing mass murder and terrorism at home what we’re talking about here. Like preventing mass murderers and terrorists from obtaining weapons at gun shows without going through the slightest background check.

            One would think that you would be in favor of preventing terrorists from obtaining weapons at gun shows … but NO! You’re apparently completely OK with that. Why? Why are you in favor of mass murder? Are you a mass murderer? Or a mass murderer wanna be? Should I call the FBI?

          7. Once again, I have to get you to try and comprehend I am not a terrorist nor do I support ANY form thereof. Please, by all means, contact the FBI. I know the residing FBI people in my city. Then, after they have done their investigating, they will come and arrest you for fraudulent information and you will be the one carrying the arrest on your record.

          8. But you’re firmly against any program that would reduce the number of terrorist attacks in the US. So…a terrorist enabler, then. A terrorist sympathizer. There’s only a very thin line between terrorist sympathizer and terrorist.

            You want to prevent terrorist attacks? Prevent terrorists in the US from obtaining background-check-free weapons. Limit the type of weapons that can be obtained, limit the amount of ammunition that can be purchased, require strong training for any firearm sold, require liability insurance in order to hold weapons of any sort…and on and on.

            Only terrorist sympathizers throw their hands in the air and say “nothing can be done”. That’s pure bullshit and contrary to the clear and unambiguous findings of the Supreme Court in Heller.

          9. Mr. Kevin K, I must apologize for what was unknowingly posted on this site for about the last week. My account was compromised and I have alerted one of the MODs to try and get this straightened out. I give sincere apologies to anyone who was offended, in any way, to the posts that were made. I appreciate your understanding in regards to this issue and will rectify this issue asap.

          10. Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

            — Antonin Scalia.

          11. Let me put it in a more specific analogy so as to not cloud your judgement. I DO see where you are coming from but, you lack evidence to be able to say my argument is entirely invalid. You simply apply your response based on generalized hypothesis.

            I know these are desperate times, and these times cause people to jump to conclusions, but should that alone be justification enough to say that I would hurt any human being, even though I have no history of physical violence or mental instability?

          12. Your argument is invalid because it’s not logically sound. No evidence is needed for that. I didn’t say YOU were a mass shooter. You came to that conclusion yourself, speaking of jumping to conclusions. Don’t put words in my mouth. I was using that as an example to show your stance as a “law-abiding citizen” doesn’t hold water. It’s very “no true Scotsman”-esque, in that once someone commits a crime, they’re no longer in that group. Just the REAL law abiding citizens are left. Very convenient.

          13. There are certain places where you cannot bring your gun. GET OVER IT. People who need to be in court or at school, do not need to be concerned about some “law abiding citizen” whizzing bullets past their heads, trying to shoot others who were “law abiding citizens” right up to the point where they weren’t.
            If you need to do that, keep it to within the confines of where you need to be, and nobody else does. We have enough problems with gun-happy police. We don’t need YOU in the mix.

          14. I hate to inform you of such but, up until about 7 days ago, someone had gotten onto my account and had made several nasty and distasteful posts that I am STILL getting comments from.

            I understand and recognize your position on gun control but, if I choose to carry a gun(since I live in a state that allows open carry) I will exercise my right to do so. Since I am not a paranoid schizophrenic and, since I live a life that is peaceful, why would I bring a gun into such a peaceful setting? That would seem rude and would also show I have a weakness and the peaceful life I have would be destroyed!!!

            I only carry my side arm when I go hunting to finish off a deer(IF it hasn’t already expired as, I shoot them in the neck and death is instantaneous) or to kill snakes that come slithering through my yard because I have kids, and I want to ensure their safety. If I go into a convenience store, or a small business, I am already well known by the owners and workers AND will remove the cylinder from the gun prior to putting the gun back in the holster. Responsibility in owning a firearm and knowing gun safety are BOTH key in minimizing accidental discharges while handling ANY gun PERIOD!!!

            BB guns, Pellet rifles, Air Soft guns, etc… are examples of overlooked guns because they use spring air or pressurized canisters to thrust a projectile thru a barrel, yet these go undetected or don’t get reported when trauma has been inflicted.
            Even a Blowgun is a lethal weapon in the right hands.

          15. And I don’t care what you think because up until about a week ago, someone had hacked my account and made a lot of negative posts. I live in an open carry state but I don’t carry a firearm because I don’t need one. So go be negative to someone else.

          16. AND YOU NEED TO GO REPLY TO SOMEONE WHO REALLY GIVES A RAT’S ASS!!! SEE, WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS UP UNTIL ABOUT A WEEK AGO I HAD MY ACCOUNT HACKED AND THE POST YOU RESPONDED TO HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING AS TO MY PERSONAL VIEWS ON GUN CONTROL!!!

            Since I LIVE in a state that allows open carry, I will exercise my right when I so choose to and, I will leave the nail biting, back burner, soap box, no action but all talking bullshit to you as, you seem to fit the part so well!!!

            Sincerely,
            I DON’T GIVE A F*CK

  11. Soooo…. What about the FBI RE-OPENING the case against HRC??? Just TEN days before elections, too… You DO realize that if ANY candidate involved in an on-going criminal investigation, guilty or not, CANNOT be elected into the White House. This investigation would be lengthy so LRC would be removed from the ballot until further notice… Handling the Disturbing news that SOMEONE is voting for a person that CANNOT be elected…

    1. That’s not what’s happening. It’s just more nothing, the emails have nothing to do with her, and the FBI director is interfering with an election. Do try to keep up.

        1. Bigly words scare them; use of them often evokes accusations of intellectual elitism. I sure wouldn’t want anyone to think something so shameful of me.

        2. You’re TOO kind. To know I have more sets of chromosomes than you do AND, it has been scientifically proven I can use 13-16% of my brain, at any given time, does put me in the elite. For the ones who think they are SOOO smart(and yes, I recognize and applaud those who truly are the best theologians and scientists of our time) yet, almost without cause, resort to their basic instincts and show just how far, or in this case, how short, their vocabulary and intellectual boundaries are.

          Give me a banana!!!! Then I’ll throw my feces at you, stick my finger in my anus, pull it back out, smell it, then pass out.

          That’s what I call a day!!! After all, if it is an ape you call me, it will be an ape mentality I will show you.

      1. Our Forefathers never envisioned this type of issue coming up so, yes, I mis-read the 25th Amendment but, this is truly a blow to her campaign. My true belief is that our country, irregardless of the outcome, will become one of turmoil and desolation.

    2. 1 – In all the investigations into Hillary Clinton, there have never been any charges brought. This is true in the current e-mail “scandal” as well. The investigation found she used poor judgment, but didn’t break any laws.

      2 – The FBI investigation wasn’t reopened, as it was never closed.

      3 – The letter from Comey admits he has no idea about the contents of the new e-mails and/or whether they are relevant to the investigation.

      The entire new scandal reduces to “we have new e-mails, no idea if they’re relevant or not — but NEW E-MAILS!”

    3. They didn’t “reopen” it; it was never closed. It’s not a criminal investigation, it’s just the FBI doing what they do, but Comey bringing out this nothing letter now shows intent to interfere with an election.

    4. 1. Those aren’t her e-mails.
      2. Those were not from her server.
      3. They were not sent to her.
      4. They were not sent BY her.

      In short — there is absolutely zero in the word “e-mail” that disturbs me.

  12. My dad has voted Republican in every election ever since I could remember. Although he has said he doesn’t like Trump that much, and he doesn’t really support Gary Johnson either, and he didn’t even know who Jill Stein was, but he is definitely never going to vote for Hillary.

    My mom used to be more liberal but over the past few years she has been constantly watching Fox News and various other right-wing propaganda and pretty much thinks Hillary is literally the devil now, and she was considering voting for Gary Johnson until the Aleppo gaffe. So I’m pretty sure they’re both voting Trump.

  13. You have to look at the bigger picture here. The Trump Revolution results from the collapse of the Enlightenment’s social project, a result of wishful-thinking, pseudoscience and bad philosophy from the 18th Century that doesn’t work because it conflicts with man’s nature. Successful societies in the future will look more like the ones before the Enlightenment in some respects. They might still progress technologically, but socially they would structure organically around inequality, hierarchy and patriarchy – the natural way for man to live. Instead of becoming extrapolations or caricatures of our current liberal-progressive trainwrecks – basically the “Star Trek” model of the future – they would probably more resemble the neo-feudal societies shown in Frank Herbert’s Dune novels.

    1. Took a remarkably long time for it to “collapse”. The rate of social and technical change in that time, the growth in population… it’s almost as if you were totally full of shit.

  14. Only 1/6 of an iceberg is visible, and only 16 of hillary’s crimes are visible. I wonder what other horrors she has hidden?

    1. This could be the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen. Does it work for everything? Only 1/6 of an iceberg is visible, therefore, only 1/6 of my bank account is visible. I’m going to go to the bank and try that. I’ll refer them to you with any questions.

        1. Oh, yeah totally. No. Based on this and the rest of your comments, I think you’re an idiot. But according to your math, I’ve only read 1/6 of them so I can only imagine how stupid the rest of them are. Take solace that you are of a special minority. I don’t often reply to comments on my site. If I did, I’d be here all day. Your “1/6” comment was special. Thanks for stopping by and representing the deplorables so well.

          1. Ok, i will prove it idiot. When the cops arrest someone for the first time do you think that is the first crime they ever committed?

          2. That would be different on a case-by-case basis. For many, sure, it could very likely be their first crime. Also, I don’t think you understand what “proving” something means. To assume that every person gets away with the first crimes without being arrested is total nonsense.

          3. Statistically less than 1% of people arrested are first time offenders. The guy who broke into your garage has you neighbors tools as well. Trust me, hillary has many more crimes than what we have seen so far.

          4. Statistically, you’re full of shit. First off, your “1%” claim is not true. Please link me to the study that shows your statistic is accurate. I guarantee it doesn’t exist. Last I heard, about 30% of those arrested have no criminal history. Second, your last comment doesn’t at all address what your claim was. You were talking about when someone is arrested FOR THE FIRST TIME, is it the first crime they’ve committed. Your latest comment addresses recidivism, not first offenses. Again, you don’t seem to understand what proof is.

          5. I do not know if you are gay, but i suspect it by the style of your argument. From our initial encounter you were never curious if i might be right. You are not looking for answers but seek to indoctrinate. Those of your ilk continually demanding, “documentation to support my argument”, and then when presented with it demand more requirements or dismiss it. I dont want documentation from you, i want to know your opinion and why you believe it. From your heart, not some stat compiled by Media Matters, to hel rush through some progressive legislation.

          6. If I’m gay? I’m not, but what the hell wold that have to do with anything? You said “I will prove it.” Then you provided a statistic you made up with no proof. Sorry, but that’s not how arguments work. Data doesn’t come “from the heart.” It’s actual data, like from government crime statistics available to everyone, not MMFA like you suggest. You never presented anything to support your argument — you just changed what your argument was. Please try again to prove your hypothesis (as you said you were going to) that people who are arrested for the first time have committed crimes in the past. If you can’t (which I know you can’t), then get lost and stop spreading your nonsense on my site.

          7. Mr. Kevin… It seems like someone has been using my email addy and password to login to this site. Since you are a MOD, as I have seen in some of the disgusting posts that was done using my username, if I go in and change my password to this Site will disqus send a confirmation email with the new password in the body?

          8. Okay, password and Username has been changed. I hope this gets all this crap taken care of… Whoever did all of the posts was kinda pushing people around by pushing their buttons. I was astonished at the vast majority and hope this doesn’t reflect negatively against me.

          1. So what are your thoughts on the reopening of the fbi investigation? Do you think hillary will serve any prison time?

  15. Well, being essentially told by conservatives that they don’t hate me, they just don’t want me to have any of the freedoms they regularly enjoy because their bronze Age God disapproves, is also just as “fun.” Can’t be mad at me for returning the favor.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/29fa8a18b9f2aea9284ed3eaa03e416c9a76f57f6a2e45717648674ada565372.gif
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a76658c980d35fb703f75eb03d105e620b1d5cab2857618e0662f2c077bfceeb.gif

  16. Thanks for focusing on a singular part of the comment, rather than taking it as a whole. But, since it won’t matter to you, I do think that cannibalism is the same as voting for Trump. Viewing his supporters, his total lack of foreign policy, his racism, misogyny, his vitriol….I think the zombie apocalypse would be better than having Trump become President.

    1. What racism? His foriegn policy is soveriegn nations. Not that hard to understand unless you think abiding by U.S. Immigration laws equates with racism.

        1. Ok. Thank you for asking in a civil manner. I will make my point strongly, but with no intent to offend.
          The U.S. Is under no obligation whatsoever to let any immigrants in at all.
          Those we let in can be whomever we choose and we have no obligation to be “fair”.
          The President has an obligation to be”selfish” for the American citizens, and his immigration policy should only be viewed as to how it benefits Americans not the immigrants.
          Islam has some serious issues right now with western culture, and there is no damage by putting a 25 year hiatus on immigration from Islamic countries. It is better to offend an entire nation than to lose one American life.
          This is not racism, this is our team’s coach (the president) trying to get a win for our team(America).

          1. Technically, the Immigration Act of 1952 would allow the Prez to do just that. But Congress could easily (and quickly) over rule him. Also, consider Americans abroad, if we did that. Consider the loss of talent that has come to this country with advanced degrees in engineer (of all disciplines ) versus the Americans still looking to get a job on an assembly line or in a mine. Yeah, we’d be third world before that decade was out.

          2. No, we would simply have to train more engineers, and their salaries would increase. Don’t we all want higher wages for our workers?

          3. The current guys would get rich with overtime pay! Plus, how great a motivation for college students to know they can graduate as an engineer and begin earning $100,000 to $150,000 per year. The engineering departments at every American university would have a line of applicants winding around the building. Think of how our Universities would benefit.

          4. Over time does not make up the gap. And most college students in engineering programs in this country aren’t ‘Murican’s. But you do what you want, it will be a moot point next Wednesday.

  17. I am in near-physical pain as literally all of my relatives are voting for him. It’s because of abortion for 90% of them.
    I have this level of rage about it I can barely stand because I was raised in the later Clinton era and spoon-fed the importance of character like it was manna. Apart from two racist businessmen whose stance doesn’t surprise me one bit, my family members are die-hard social conservatives. To see them violate their own ethics for this sexist narcissist hurts in ways I hadn’t imagined. To see my mom defend this idiot–not because she’s even making excuses, but because she’s the most pure-hearted, echo-chambered lamb-being-led-to-the-slaughter I have ever met, infuiriates me almost ON her behalf.
    Christians in this realm, including them, have lost every leg to stand on. I appreciate and have applied the ethos of this post in many conversations, but the social fallout for an out-of-touch community that raised me to feel profound shame for natural sexual feelings, for questioning things, and which dictated a subtly racist, overtly sexist and total prohibition against alcohol or sex while permitting greed, gluttony, hypocrisy and outright deceit will feel the effects of this choice for years to come.

    1. What you described sounds exactly like Mormonism. What they probably don’t realize is that Trump isn’t against abortion. That’s only a recent tack of his, because it appeals to the right wing. He’s proven that he’s startlingly clueless about late term abortion at the last debate. I doubt he really cares much one way or another, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience him. He only cares about himself, and he’s frothingly angry that Hillary is besting him at every turn. I’m terrified that he might win. He’s plainly insane.

      1. Agreed, agreed, agreed. But in their world, Mormons are cult members and not “real” Christians, and their idolatry of the pro-life judges Trump has promised to appoint bests all else. I’ve tried to explain that you can’t trust a word he says, but they’re oblivious and so uninformed about abortion that they undoubtedly nodded their heads at his words about “nine-month” abortions

      2. Mormon support for Trump is inexcusable: Trump supporters have kinda-sorta-maybe hinted at genocidal violence against Mormons if they deny Trump the election. They even invented a word for it: “Mormocaust.”

        1. That’s horrible. I had not heard of that, but then I’m not in Utah or in Southern Idaho. Considering the terrible behavior of so many Trump supporters, I don’t have too much trouble believing it , but I do intend to look it up . This needs to be brought to light , if it is indeed true. What I find so concerning about so many Mormons is the childishness that is still so prevalent and so much a part of their thinking. They are much too trusting of their leaders and too afraid to question, because if they do, they get into trouble, thereby possibly committing social suicide.

          I have always been a person who questions, skeptical of unfounded claims. I would have made a terrible Mormon. I find myself caught between pity and frustration when talking with the ones I know.

          1. I’ve met a few Mormons, and their childishness is their shield against accountability and reason. They spout their nonsense in such a sincere, childlike, obedient tone that you quickly give up trying to reason with them, because they’re just innocent little lambs and you’d only hurt their feelings without getting them to think.

  18. I was at a family gathering in early September, and only ONE relative was even close to overtly supporting Trump. He didn’t say anything about Trump, but he did do the standard racist hamming-and-hawing about how Obama didn’t represent the values America was built on, and, well shenannigans at the polling places in 2008, blah blah blah… When I started pressing him on his BS, he started talking about how “we’re not gonna talk about this at a family gathering,” even though everyone else there was already talking about it (including a distant cousin from South Africa who didn’t like how…familiar…Trump was sounding to her). He sorta shut up, and I got a thumbs-up from a younger woman sitting across the table from him. Not a bad day, coulda been worse I guess.

  19. Sad to see so many people being willfully ignorant of all the scandles and horrible things hillary has done just because of seeking confirmation bias and disliking trump because he said some mean things. I wonder what kind of article this guy’s gonna write next week when Trump wins?

    1. “This guy” thinks your wishful thinking is adorable. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Trump besides “he said some mean things.” I find it appalling that Republicans have shifted their stances on issues, tossed out the moral high ground they hold so dear, and blatantly ignored the shady financial past of their candidate just so they can try not to lose the election. Compare Trump’s words with Reagan or GHWB and you’ll notice an enormous difference in platforms, with often opposite stances on issues. But Republicans ignore all of that, or Trumpers aren’t aware of it because they’ve never followed politics before , because “winning/great/huge/China/Mexico”. Grow up and see manipulation for what it is. You’re voting for a snake oil salesman.

        1. This is not a football game. We are citizens in a democratic society. Our constitution is designed for and calls on citizens to speak up and demand what they think is right and fight against what is wrong. That especially includes citizens of the party whose candidate is not in office. I know many who voted for Trump, not because he demonstrated presidential qualities, but because they wanted change. They say to me “give him a chance.” Well, I don’t agree with putting someone in office to give them a chance. I think candidates for president should be qualified and have shown their worth before they get into the office of the president. Our electoral college was set up to stop an unqualified president from being elected, when citizens vote generated one. They failed. I will deat with that, fight to fix that, as a responsible citizen.

    2. What ignorance?

      DECADES of investigations, witch hunts and demonizations and what do you have except rumour mongering and rumours of rumour mongering.

      “I wonder what kind of article this guy’s gonna write next week when Trump wins?”

      Hopefully, he will be covering Trumps fraud trial for his “University”, or maybe his upcoming pedophilia rape trial….

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