Triggered Again: Ken Ham Attacks Teens’ Planned Parenthood Dresses

Our favorite creationist, Ken Ham, got fired up on Tuesday after Yahoo! reported two teenage girls created dresses made entirely of Planned Parenthood literature, stickers, and condoms.

According to Yahoo!, the two are students at the Ethical Culture Fieldston School in New York City. The school hosts an annual fashion show, and requires entrants to create their clothing using nontraditional materials. The girls decide they wanted to make a statement with their entries this year, inspired by the current political climate.

One of the girls, showing wisdom beyond her years stated:

“When I walked down the runway, I think some people thought it was funny that I was wearing condoms on the top, but I think it was a great way to bring people out of their comfort zones a little bit, and de-stigmatize something that shouldn’t carry any stigma at all.”

I wholeheartedly agree. American culture is flooded with images of weapons and violence, especially in the “God and Guns” evangelical community, but when anyone makes reference to sex or nudity, our puritanical senses begin to tingle, causing all sorts of discomfort. It should be the other way around.  I’m fairly certain Jesus didn’t carry around an AR-15, but he sure as hell washed the feet of prostitutes (if you believe the Bible, that is).

Here’s what our buddy Ken Ham had to say about it:

Ken_Ham_-_PP

Wait, what? Pink and red clothes signify the blood of child sacrifice? Come on, Ken. You’re really becoming just a caricature of yourself at this point. And which child sacrifice are you referring to? The one where God sacrificed his son — who was also himself — to himself to save everyone else from himself (which makes no goddamn sense anyway)? Or are we talking about the references to God’s reverence for child sacrifice in the Bible?

I know, I know, Kreation Kenny is talking about abortion. Apparently, he still thinks that’s all Planned Parenthood does.  News flash though… Evangelical Christians visit Planned Parenthood all the time for low-cost or free health care and family planning services!  Oops.  I’m sure if he came across that information, he’d try to Ken-splain his way out of that one too… like that those people were possessed by the devil some other nonsense.

In the end though, I give these two young ladies a lot of credit.  First, for making a stand for what they believe in, and second, for making what appears to be some really nice-looking detailed gowns from not much more than pamphlets, stickers, and condoms!  That’s some talent.

And make sure you stop by Ken Ham’s Facebook post if you’d like to get lost in idiotic commenter hell and have nothing better to do but lose your mind. (Of course, I’d much rather you comment here instead!)

 

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Kevin Davis

Kevin Davis is the head writer and editor for SecularVoices, co-founder of Young Skeptics, and author of Understanding an Atheist. He is known for local and national secular activism and has spoken at conferences and events such as Reason Rally 2016 and the Ark Encounter Protest and Rally.

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259 thoughts on “Triggered Again: Ken Ham Attacks Teens’ Planned Parenthood Dresses

  1. Mr. Ham’s comment sections are always amusing. But I think I’d rather see what people have to say here.

  2. Someone should explain things to him better. He doesn’t seem to know that condoms are a way of avoiding abortions.

    1. Planned Parenthood prevents abortions by offering contraception and honest information.

      Republicans and evangelicals cause abortions by preferring ignorance and lies.

      Planned Parenthood prevents late abortions by offering prompt care without delaying procedures.

      Republicans and evangelicals cause late abortions by delaying access.

      1. Republicans and evangelicals will only be happy when not only abortion is outlawed but also unapproved sex. (Any sex outside a christian approved married man and woman)

        Because, you know, they are all for small government. Small enough to tell you what to do with your bits and bobs between your legs.

  3. Can we tolerate belief systems which preach taking the child’s life before first breath is morally ok? At what point, does your belief system claim the baby should get human rights? Shouldn’t it be when it gets it’s gender and dna and can be hurt by big people? Why do we stop the mother from drinking, but then ok her decision to kill it? Philosophies that support abortion make women cheap, accessible, and exchangeable to wicked men, who are using women as toys without any commitment, without taking responsibility, and without being considerate. There will always be state embraced belief systems running the show, why has the state chosen this belief system and encoded it into law? Whether you want to say the baby should have human rights before first breath or that it shouldn’t, you are forced to do so relying on a belief systems. The author was correct to point out that the girls were standing up for what they believe……..Why did they choose to believe such things and how will their lives now be lived based on these beliefs? What are they worshipping and what gods will they serve?

    1. “Can we tolerate belief systems which preach taking the child’s life before first breath is morally ok”

      – It’s not a child until it has at least developed cognitive abilities. Until then, it’s a clump of cells. The basics of the nervous system aren’t in place until around 16 weeks. That is the very earliest one could potentially call it a child, but even then, it has no cognitive abilities.

      “At what point, does your belief system claim the baby should get human rights”

      – At birth. Before then, it’s totally and 100% dependent on the mother. If the mother chooses to abort the baby, it’s her body.

      I know where you are going with these questions. If you would like provide for these children, please, offer up your body and your resources to host an unwanted pregnancy. In short, put your money where your mouth is.

      “Shouldn’t it be when it gets it’s gender and dna and can be hurt by big people”

      – That happens at conception. But it cannot feel, think, or barely move on it’s own. So, no. It’s a few cells. Just like any other cell in your body.

      “Philosophies that support abortion make women cheap, accessible, and exchangeable to wicked men, who are using women as toys without any commitment, without taking responsibility, and without being considerate.”

      – You’ve never considered the possibility that, just maybe, a woman MIGHT want to have sex without the risks of a child, have you?

      You are denying women their agency and assuming you know what is best for another person.

      I’m going to bet you’re against sex outside of marriage. Cause guess what, if you’re really against abortion, then support education and affordable access to birth control (condoms, the pill, depo shots, etc.), because that’s the #1 way to stop abortions from happening.

      Sex outside of marriage is going to happen. It happens with the most fundy of christians who claim to have a holy spirit in them and the most liberal of atheists. You can’t stop it. Your religion cannot stop it. So take the scientifically proven approach – education and affordable birth control option. Abortion problem solved.

      My only other real response to the above: Take your sanctimonious, sexist, misogynistic high horse and go fuck yourself with it. Women are neither weak nor exchangeable. They can have sex with who they want, as many times as they want, with as little or as much commitment as they want.

      “Here will always be state embraced belief systems running the show, why has the state chosen this belief system and encoded it into law”

      – Because it’s far more moral than the system you’re advocating.

      I believe the trumpsters love saying this to those of us who hate trump: get over it. We won.

      Well guess what, get over it. You lost, we won and it ain’t going to change.

      Go cling to your bible, be afraid of gods wrath, and leave the rest of us alone to live our happy lives without needing your belief system.

      “forced to do so relying on a belief systems”

      – And your point is?

      “Why did they choose to believe such things and how will their lives now be lived based on these beliefs? What are they worshipping and what gods will they serve?”

      – Because they recognize modern morals are superior to the ones you are espousing.

      As for what gods they worship? They worship whatever they want. It’s not my business, nor is it your business either. Let them serve satan, if you think so. Pray for their poor wicked souls, go to church and bitch about how evil the world is, and stay away from the rest of us who don’t need your belief system to be happy.

      1. If you believe people should give children human rights at first breath, you’ll also most likely believe sex outside of marriage is ok, that prostitution and pornography is ok, that homosexuality and trans gendering are good and should be considered outside of human self control. You believe that anything should be allowed between consenting adults, but that homosexuals are created that way and cannot change back. Why are children being told they can choose a gender against their biology while the homosexual is told he can’t choose to become less homosexual? Why do these beliefs all go together? Why are they taught in our schools, funded by our government, and encoded in our laws? The turning away of the simple will slay them. People are destroyed by their very rebellion against God. The very things they love becomes the curse eating them alive, ushering them to the grave.

        1. Yup.

          I can attest as an ex-christian, ex-fundy no less, that after leaving the church and christianity for good, after accepting the truth that god doesn’t exist and after realizing that people should be free to live their own lives…my life was utterly destroyed.

          I have a successful business and marriage. I have a child. But guess what? Last weekend my wife and I did a swap with another couple. Sex all day. Outside of marriage.

          Guess what? We’ve been doing that for years.

          And I…still have a successful business, a successful marriage, an intelligent, loving child who is getting good grades, does not discriminate, works hard, is a talented musician and is advanced for her age.

          I guess your threats don’t apply to me.

          I guess I’ve been slayed. The money in the bank, my happy wife and child, my friends and partners…oops. I guess satan has blessed me.

          Shame he’s blessed me for years. And years. More than your god ever did.

          I guess the only thing you have left is the threat of hell! Excellent. I will see the day I die if your threat is real or just hot air, promoted by a religion that is more concerned with power and control over other people than by truth.

          I’ll enjoy my rebellion against god. It’s done wonders for me! Perhaps you should try it too. 😉

          1. In Germany, currently there is over 400,000 prostitutes serving over a million men, some in multi story brothels, at flat rates with no taboos. Why did German public schools teach their children prostitution should be considered normal like any other job? Why did they have school children brainstorm about how to open and run a brothel? Why would the prostitutes themselves currently vote to keep prostitution legal? This kindof world is created by what the people worship, what they value, what they honor. It might be to you some twisted form of paradise, but I think most would agree with me that it is some form of hell on earth, especially for women and children.

            Is this the world, you want your daughter to grow up in?

            http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/05/09/legalization-has-turned-germany-into-the-bordello-of-europe-we-should-be-ashamed/

            Did Bill Clinton’s philandering hurt his wife, and daughter, and the women he slept with? None of us live in a vacuum and can claim our lives have no effect good or evil.

          2. So you are against flat rates?

            Stop lying about what is taught in German schools.

            Prostitution is legal and strictly controlled in Germany …again, like and abortion banning it does not stop it and just makes it unsafe.

            “A 2012 report by Fondation Scelles indicated that there were an estimated 1 million prostitutes in the U.S.”

            Seems we beat them.

            Yea, prostitution never happened in the good ole days …Oh wait there.

          3. Why do Isis sex slave owners make use of overlapping contraceptives and abortion services? Usability and to maintain resale values. What makes you think America’s juvenile men are much different or that abortion was designed to meet the woman’s interests?

            https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2015/10/06/middleeast/pregnant-yazidis-forced-abortions-isis/index.html

            https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/world/middleeast/to-maintain-supply-of-sex-slaves-isis-pushes-birth-control.html

          4. Because in this country women decide to have abortions all by themselves. They also decide the when, where and who of having sex.

            Anything ISIS does is justified by their twisted version of religion … unless of course you think they are atheists?

            So that blew up in your face didn’t it.

            No one is forced into having an abortion no matter how much you want to believe that garbage.

          5. If you read their testimonies, most feel forced to choose abortion on some level. Nobody grows up wanting to have an abortion. Even if they really want to have the baby, but believe they can’t because of finances, education, career, or even timing, wouldn’t that be expressed as feeling forced to abort.

          6. Actually the latest research says most don’t regret it at all.

            “Researchers at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine followed more than 600 women who underwent the procedure from 30 medical facilities over a three year period and regularly assessed how they felt about they choice they made.

            The women, aged 25 on average and from different racial and social backgrounds, were asked a series of questions including what had prompted them to terminate the pregnancy, what emotions the decision provoked and if they still thought it was the right thing to do.

            “Women overwhelmingly felt abortion was the right decision in both the short-term and over three years, and the intensity of emotions and frequency of thinking about the abortion declined over time,” the study concluded.

          7. You could not regret it but still feel you were forced to make the decision. In fact, feeling forced can make you feel less guilt. You could believe the rest of your life that it was as good decision, but still feel like it was forced upon you. As long as you keep believing the baby had no rights until first breath, you’ll keep regret and guilt at bay.

          8. How about you stop it with the “women are forced” mantra?
            We’re not. We can make our own decisions without input from people like you.

          9. What about the, ‘our body ourselves mantra’. What is that really all about? How can anybody claim they have a moral right to kill the dependent child, just so they can live a certain lifestyle, have a certain education, or have more money in the bank. Why are we killing more girls then boys, why more with downs or of certain races? What we believe is revealed in our actions.

          10. Body autonomy belief systems allow men to pimp women to other men as long as everyone agrees to it ahead of time. Jesus’s law of loving the Lord first and your neighbor as yourself wouldn’t allow you to pimp a woman as a toy even if it’s what everyone wanted. God’s ethics of doing unto others as you’d have done to yourself is light years ahead of the ‘our body, ourselves’ body autonomy belief systems. Body autonomy belief systems are all about the, art of the deal. There is deals which should never be pursued. Let’s say an employer find an employee enthusiastic about working like a slave for a penny an hour. Even if the employee is happy with the compensation and even if there was no government law against it, wouldn’t we judge the deal to be immoral and a form of consensual slavery?
            The woman selling her body might be getting what she wants, but we can still judge it as wrong because, we would never want to be treated that way and thus we believe all women should never be treated that way. The art of the deal melts before real concern for your neighbors and children.

          11. You’re a judgmental little muffin, aren’t you. Do unto others? How about you mind your biz and we mind ours? Can you do that?

          12. Not if I follow Christ’s command to love your neighbor as yourself and to do unto others as you’d have done to yourself. I cannot ignore injustice, I cannot say that is somebody else’s problem.

          13. It’s like you’re arguing for amoeba rights, only an amoeba is already a fully formed, fully functional animal.
            Maybe you’ll meet one some day, out of some warm scummy baptismal pond in the South… it could only be an improvement.

          14. A woman can claim a right to an abortion because her body, from the skin to the bone, to the marrow to the very last organ…including the uterus…is HERS and she, just like men, is not obliged to share any part of same with anyone else without her express consent. Women’s bodies are not the property of the state, the church, strangers, her parents, siblings, spouse, children or fetuses, no matter how badly someone else may need them. Repeat as often as needed…women’s bodies are their own, not other people’s property.

          15. Any evidence of that?

            If someone forced you to make any decision you would regret making that decision. IMHO.

            They don’t have any regret …you can’t hide regret.

          16. You don’t have to believe that a fetus (babies would suffocate in an uterus) has no rights. But the fundamental rights of a non-sentient entity cannot override the rights of an actual person.

          17. You keep throwing up these dumb examples.
            Yes, nobody wants abortions. Surgery isn’t considered a fun way to spend an afternoon.

            You easily seem to ignore the thousands of women who just don’t want to be mothers at a particular point in time.

            Contraception is not 100 % effective, outside of getting your tubes tied.

          18. I had an abortion. I wasn’t forced nor did I. I got pregnant at a time when I would have been thrown off my mom’s insurance as a dependent, lost my job and any chance of insurance of my own. I really did not want to be a mother as I could not give a child a good life. Guess what. I grew up poor since my father (a “good Christian”) left my mother with three kids to be with his mistress and refused to pay child support. I know how much it hurts to be hungry or worry if we are going to be homeless. I lost out on scholarships because I worked full time. The whole rest of my life changed because I couldn’t study like the rest of my friends. No money put away for college. Nothing. I would never do that to a child. It is cruel. Adoption wouldn’t have worked. Still would have lost my insurance and my job.

          19. My Mom had an abortion she has regretted for over forty years. Man’s mistreatment of you, whether your father’s, your boyfriends, or societies in general, does not make abortion a necessary evil. It’s like the stressed out mouse eating her young. It’s hard to blame the mother mouse when belief systems and lack of caregivers have forced her to that point, but it is still wrong and God will not hold man guiltless for the blood that has been spilt.

          20. So because your mom regretted it probably due to the religion and people around her calling it evil, no one else get to have one? Literal I got mine and eff everyone else. Also you may not exist if your mom didn’t have an abortion depending on your age. Her life would have been completely different. Women can make their own decisions though and some people regret them. Women are not weaker and we don’t need men to tell us not to worry our pretty little heads. It may not be one you like but too bad. Many of us on here don’t believe in your god or concept of sin. Closest I have been to religious in years is Wiccan. You want to do something to help women. Contact your congress person and fight for more birth control and sex Ed. If you are a Texan, question your state legislature on why they couldn’t do something this session on the fact that Texas had the worst maternal death rate in America and the rest of the developed world. Do something constructive rather than try to shame women on an atheist site for sin we don’t believe in. We are not going to suddenly shout to the skies we believe. More than likely just block and move on.

          21. I’m perfectly fine with the world she’s growing up in.

            And since when did I advocate a “no holds legalization of prostitution”? I said woman have the right to have sex with who they want, as many times as they want, with or without commitment.

            That’s THEIR choice.

            You have no right to interfere with that choice. You’ve also provided nothing as evidence as to why it’s bad. You provided a single article against Germany’s prostitution law. Much of what was stated in the article is illegal. I looked it up. It’s just not being enforced well.

            Sex slavery is still illegal. Murder is illegal. Abuse is illegal. In fact, the article admitted a brothel was shut down due to human trafficking.

            So start cracking down on the brothels operating outside the law. Or if it’s too much trouble, make prostitution illegal. It’s not that complicated.

            As far as teaching kids about sex, so what? Give them plenty of unbiased education and provide them with birth control options if they decide to start having sex. Again, you’ve provided nothing other than “it’s bad cause god” and “prostitution is bad, here is a link”.

            Provide some evidence that women who have sex outside of marriage are miserable and need saving from evil men and then we’ll talk. Oh, and don’t send biased christian articles. I want peer-reviewed, high quality evidence, not propaganda from right-wing sexist bullshit.

          22. Women own a moneymaker. Why should they not profit by renting it out if they so choose?

            Again, your snout is where it doesn’t belong, rooting about in other people’s business.

          23. Why did German public schools teach their children prostitution should be considered normal like any other job?

            Because it is?

            Why would the prostitutes themselves currently vote to keep prostitution legal?

            Why would anyone vote to make themselves a criminal?

            This kindof world is created by what the people worship, what they value, what they honor.

            No, it’s a world based on reality.

            Did Bill Clinton’s philandering hurt his wife, and daughter, and the women he slept with?

            Did Donald Trump’s?

          24. No matter how much you think your beliefs are based on reality, the reality is that reality will never tell you what is good and evil – that’s all belief systems. Yes, I believe Mr. Trumps words and actions hurt women in his life.

          25. reality will never tell you what is good and evil

            No, it will only tell us what is real.

            that’s all belief system

            Yes, but one that corresponds to reality.

          26. Let`s get down to basics. The atheist looking at the actions of a Christian may legitimately say “Comparing your actions with what you say you believe it is clear that you are a hypocrite“ However, when you look at evolution no where does it spell out how the human must live. Therefore the atheist can never legitimately say “ What I believe tells me you are an a hypocrite.“ But deep inside the atheist still assesses the actions of the Christian to be hypocritical. This is evidence that he has not been able to fully resign from Christianity. The atheist is not a genuine atheist unless he can commit a normally considered vile act and not feel guilty. (Hitler and Stalin might qualify.) A true atheist would never be reviled by any actions. If you ever feel guilty about anything you do it would indicate that God has not completely given up on you.

          27. Of course he can say it based on his own worldview. You ignore that the worldview of a secular humanist contains much more than just the lack of belief in one or more gods.
            And BTW, Hitler was raised as a Christian and stayed a theist all his life.

          28. However, when you look at evolution no where does it spell out how the human must live. Therefore the atheist can never legitimately say “ What I believe tells me you are an a hypocrite.`

            What does evolution have to do with atheism?

            But deep inside the atheist still assesses the actions of the Christian to be hypocritical. This is evidence that he has not been able to fully resign from Christianity.

            Why is that evidence for what you just said?

            A true atheist would never be reviled by any actions.

            Why?

        2. Good to see you are a full spectrum bigot …you are perfect example of why people hate religion. Have you ever considered keeping your nose out of other peoples’s sexuality.

          Your god is an imaginary faith construct …grow and out of it. Morality has improved way beyond the insane notions in your bible …we have many laws against what it finds moral.

          1. Can you say something is good without saying those opposed to calling it good are evil? Your understanding of morality will always interlock with what you believe. Your belief system is the foundation for what you call good and evil. Science will never value a human’s life or rights. Science as we know it, will never tell you when the baby should get human rights, that is all belief systems. So maybe instead of pretending you don’t believe, you should recognize what you have already believed and the steps of faith you’ve already taken. When a woman aborts her child, she does so in faith that the baby isn’t a baby with God given human rights. Who taught her to believe like that? Who forced her to rely on that belief system and what rights has she lost pretending these things are so?

          2. Good and evil and arbitrary labels on human behavior which change from culture to culture and situation to situation.

            No. Secular morality is not based on magical beliefs in faith constructs. You have to be able to say rationally why something is moral and in what context.

            With abortion there are 2 moral contexts … when something is in you and when something is not. When its former the host body get all the say, when its the latter its everyone’s problem.

            Also humans grant you rights, not gods …no matter how much they try to paint their human decisions with godly authority.

            Also, I hate to break it you, but plenty of bible believing christians have abortions.

          3. Your moral context arguments is the same reasoning used to justify Hitler’s actions toward the Jews. His idea of how to help people just had a different context.

          4. Really, what moral context allows Jews to killed?

            That was justified by Hitler by calling them Christ killers …that one is on Christians.

          5. Hitler’s moral context also rested on his belief that they were less then human, just like your argument for abortion. People dehumanize those they plan to kill. But the take away is that when you take away God’s moral authority, morality is always subject to human whim and context.

          6. Unless Jews are inside him the 2 are not remotely the same.

            Biblical morality is an interpreted morality so it can be interpreted anyway you like … thus its morally relative. Hitler told the story of jesus throwing out the money changers from the temple as Jews being thrown out …and the bible does have Jews deciding to kill off jesus

            That is why secular morality will always be superior and is what most Western nations follow when creating laws. You can’t justify anything based on biblical interpretations and magical authorities … you have to able to rationally say why something moral and in what context … if you can’t, yo have not got a morality.

            Again we have laws against many things that considered moral in the bible. If god wants a say he should stop hiding, come down out of the clouds an discuss things openly.

          7. God created a world where you see His handiwork, order, and righteousness everywhere you look so that you are without excuse. If you believe there is a better way, you believe there is a best way. Even as you try to blame God for known injustice, you are appealing to a moral authority outside of humanity and assuming moral absolutes. What if God designed a world where whether you believe Him or reject Him, you are forced to do so relying on belief systems. The scriptures speak of God as observing men weighing the thoughts and intents of the heart.
            Psalms 33:13-15 (KJV) The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
            From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
            He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.
            When the atheist refuses to abort the baby because she believes the baby should have human rights, does not her actions condemn the actions of the supposed Christian who justifies the violence of abortion because of what she wants and how she wants to live? Either way God is watching and knows the reasoning and intents, as well as all the aspects of context.

          8. You can’t say “God created a world ….” unless you have real world evidence of a god.

            I don’t blame a faith construct for anything.

            Freewill is pointless in a christian mythology.

            Since no one is forced to have an abortion it doesn’t matter what an atheist, or anyone else, thinks about anything.

            Again, god is only watching if you have some evidence of a god and that he/she/it watches.

          9. I see evidence everywhere, even in the rebellion of people who claim to believe there is no God. If they really believed that, why is their lives defined by rebellion against the one they so ardently argue doesn’t exist.

          10. I don’t have to ‘believe’ there is no god as absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

            An atheist is just realist and free thinker … faith constructs don’t bother us ,…. their followers can be a problem though.

          11. You just choose to interpret reality through a religious lens.
            The truth is out there. Drop the God Goggles.

          12. You choose to interpret reality through a humanistic man centered lens. You probably believe in self creation and humanly designed ethics and morals which can be easily edited by humans. That is a set of goggles you were taught to view the world through. We know so little that goggles are needed for any meanings interpretation. The goggles make things work logically, they fill in the gaps and create a world view. Can I take of my goggles without putting on some other pair? I don’t think so……….

          13. You know nothing about me, so GDIAF.

            YOUR problem is obvious. You make up stuff when you lack data. You don’t know how I was taught, but it involved a lot of vertebrate zoology, botany and biology.

            Strangely, we weren’t taught that supernatural monsters exist or that they were responsible for anything on this planet.

            Here’s a little Reality 101 to start you off.
            Fire hot. Discuss.

          14. If you ever remove the God Goggles, what you see would make a lot more sense than “god did it.”

          15. Every well accepted belief system has a logical appearance to it. I consider you to be looking through a set of belief system goggles too.

          16. Funny how “god’s moral authority” lines up with every toxic idea men have ever come up with.

          17. If you look at the verse before 137:8, He referring to a judgment in kind. The people who wrote these words just had it happen to them and they were being hauled off to a foreign country as slaves. The Babylonians didn’t want to care for children or have their captors caring for their own children so they dashed them against the rocks. The Psalm is saying, happy will be the people that do the same to the Babylonians. When the tyrant gets what he’s been dishing out, the persecuted people are happy about it.

          18. I did, but my point is that the verse doesn’t speak to the morality of the actions. It is a prophesy of what was going to happen.

          19. But earlier you said context shouldn’t matter. Your logic and your philosophy are inconsistent.

          20. Context matters, but context doesn’t change objective truth. Believing the fetus should not have human rights based on a context that the child is subhuman in some way doesn’t change the truth that God made the child in His image, values the child and will require justice if the child’s blood is spilled for someone’s personal gain.

          21. Which god? Odin? Zeus? Brigid? Amaterasu? Papa Legba? And are you saying that your god is an amorphous lump of cells?

            Most zygotes don’t attach and are flushed out of the womb naturally. Who, in your fantasy, will be held responsible for that?

            Admit it, your idea of “objective truth” is inconsistent fantasy. Gods and justice are human inventions.

          22. Not gonna happen. It takes a belief system to claim the baby should have no human rights until first breath. Science as we know it will never tell you this. It is a claim of truth clinging to pathetic evidence. You’re claiming it’s true, not because of evidence, but because you want it to be true.

          23. This is another straw man. I’m not opposed to human rights or realistic policies that protect mothers and their fetuses. I am opposed to government intervention into decisions that should be between a woman and her doctor, especially to enforce one sectarian religious view upon the rest of a society.

            You can say science supports your sectarian views, but if you do, you’re cherry picking details and quotes you really don’t understand.

          24. But you can’t prove that there is a god, let alone that humans are made in the image of this diety. That’s not truth, that’s your belief. Regardless of the biologic facts you are ignoring around human reproduction, you still can’t get around the autonomy issue.

            If a doctor gives a Woman a 50% chance of survival if she continues with a pregnancy, should she be compelled to do so by course of law? What percentage of survival for either the mother or the fetus is acceptable?

          25. I read an account of a woman who chose to carry her child instead of aborting and undergoing chemo treatment for cancer. She died shortly after giving birth, leaving her children and father behind. When faced with the option, she chose to risk even lose her life to save her child’s life. I know this isn’t for everyone and wouldn’t force a woman to do this, but the sic abortion for convenience we see all around us, might force us to that point.

          26. Do you personally know anyone who uses abortion for “convenience”? I’m pretty sure abortion is the least convenient method of birth control there is.

          27. No, don’t know anyone. Sure it’s least convenient, but do you believe it should be more convenient. Do you believe it should be looked at like any other medical procedure?

          28. The research by real scientists who aren’t Christian propagandists says that when young people are educated properly and they have access to birth control fewer abortions happen because fewer abortions are necessary. The way to make abortions more frequent is to just prudishly tell young people to abstain, which is what most Christian groups advocate.

            Re: “Do you believe it should be looked at like any other medical procedure?”
            Like heart surgery or a liver biopsy? Sure. Do you see people doing heart surgery for “convenience”? And I certainly don’t want religious zealots dictating what doctors should and shouldn’t do for their patients.

          29. Then God (he/she/it) should have ensured that pregnancies only occur on a voluntary and affirmative consent basis so that no woman is forced to gestate or give birth against her will (not even by God him/her/itself). That should have been child’s play to an all-powerful, all-knowing deity.

          30. Yeah, getting rid of a 3 week old embryo is JUST LIKE Hitler and the Jews.

            You really have no idea how stupid that sounds, do you…

          31. Hitler was the end in a long line of discrimination against Jews in Europe. Porgroms were common and they killed Jews when they wanted to blame someone for the crops or something. Europeans killed Jews for supposedly disrespecting the Eucharist or drinking children’s blood in some made up ritual. They even had to wear special marks. That is why no one really blinked when Hitler did it. It was normal until the camps started.

          32. Killing newborns with exposure or through actual ritual sacrifices was also common throughout the world before Christianity abolished it. There was numerous reasons Jews were hated pre-Hitler, but a lot of it seems to boil down to how their knowledge of God changed the way they lived and would conduct their lives and businesses. Because of their belief system, they could never become just like the Gentiles or blend in with them. They were a people of the book, who didn’t care to hear the non Jewish man’s arguments to justify sin. They knew too much already and that no man is able to stand justified before God, based on his own works.

          33. The bible says it’s not a child until it draws breath. Generally that happens after birth, or it’d drown.

            So maybe you should actually READ the book you’re trying to wallop us with?

        3. Not..really seeing a problem with anything you say at the start of this triade. The part about transgender children means we are acknowleding that *gasp* the genders we have are equal and complex!

          And your solution to LGBT folks is the same as telling someone short that, if the pray and believe and want it hard enough, they can be a foot taller. Wouldn’t it be better to let them know being short is okay and no barometer on who they are as a person?

    2. We certainly can’t tolerate people who think they have the right to force a woman to remain pregnant and give birth against their will. Which is torture.

      Something inside another’s body cannot have equal or superior rights to that of the body’s owner.

      Its nothing to do with worshiping faith constructs either.

      1. Whether the woman feels forced to carry or forced to abort isn’t the point of the injustice in that she is FORCED into this unwanted pregnancy predicament by a man, who is told with much womansplaining, that he bears no responsibility, can make no commitments, and hardly needs to bother being considerate. This is a society that has valued, worshipped sexual freedom and promiscuity and have not cared for the woman’s rights or those of the children. Science will never tell you if it’s good or evil to treat women like sex toys, only belief systems will tell you that. My guess, wicked juvenile men will keep abortion around just as long as they keep pornography around.

        1. The poor little woman being the victim here is nonsense. YOU are the one who wants to force her to be pregnant against her will no one else.

          Of course its impossible to do that unless your drug her and tie her down for 9 months so your only choice is for her to have a safe or unsafe abortion.

          Morality dictates that its immoral to expect her to have an unsafe abortion.

          The abortion question starts when a woman finds herself pregnant and does not want to be.

          All this promiscuity nonsense is you expecting others to live your dead sexless life no thanks.

          Compared to the number of times people have sex, the amount of contraception successfully used AND the amount of planned B used… unwanted pregnancy is extremely rare.

          Perhaps you should mind your own business.

        2. Your use of the word “force” suggests women don’t get to make their own decisions.

          Yes, what a better world it would be if women were all just breeders and “helpmeets” for your toxic belief system. /s

          1. Just because you get to make a decision, doesn’t mean you have an option to not make the decision. Once the woman is pregnant, she is in a position where she is forced to kill or carry. My contention is that there is a belief system running this show, that has put her in the unwanted pregnancy predicament and is forcing her to choose between abort or carry.

          2. If men got pregnant, there’d be abortion clinics on every corner, right next to the taco trucks.

          3. What makes you think the abortion clinics already here, aren’t there because of what men want and don’t want. This is what women get when a society values sex without responsibility, without true love, without true commitment.

          4. Women are human too. If anything, humans like sex as recreation, so there’s that.

          5. People like to eat too, but people can eat too much and they can eat things that destroy their body. Self control is a good thing.

          6. Of course not, but my point is that just because it is naturally physically desired doesn’t make it good or right.

          7. You know, telling people they don’t know their own minds is not likely to gain you many new followers, as we’re seeing now as church membership numbers are in free-fall.

            Y’all need a better plan if you want to survive the next few centuries. Yelling at people and calling them sinners for a variety of harmless behaviors ain’t workin too well. And the notion of doubling down and doing more of what’s driving people away?

            It fills me with glee.

          8. When Christianity ruled the world they called it the Dark Ages! Then the Reformation led to various religion killing each other in huge numbers. The Thirty Years War that killed half the German population! That is why we have a “godless” Constitution with no God or Jesus in it! The Declaration of Independence was deist in that it referred to “Nature’s God” not the Christian God. The purpose was to avoid the religious conflicts by allowing people to freely choose what to believe when it came to religion or to disbelieve if people could not be convinced of the claims of any or all religions. But instead persecution of those who professed unbelief was what was carried out and laws were passed not allowing us nonbelievers to testify in court because we did not believe in your claims of God, Heaven , Hell etc. and not allowed to run for public office by law. Finally the Supreme Court began to remove Bible reading and teachings from public schools and other gains were made over time. Freedom of Conscience is not completely won yet! Kids can still be indoctrinated by their parents before the have the intellectual abilities to think for themselves! Atheists encourage our children to question and think critically as opposed to just believe!

          9. When you’re studying nature presupposing self creation, are you going to be blind to the design? If I tell you the dna code just happened to luckily create something that works, are you going to be looking for readable information? Presuppositions fundamentally change the way you approach learning and science. If you believe their can’t be any design or languages, you constantly see chaos. If you believe everything was designed and programmed, languages created, then that is what you’ll see.

          10. The atheist has belief system bias just like the Christian. Why should I allow your beliefs to run this show? Can a teacher teach without expressing his belief system bias? Can a ruler govern without relying on a belief system? Can a judge judge? My biggest problem with the atheist, is that they actually think they stopped relying on a world view. They actually believe that their beliefs are just facts now and that people could actually live without embracing a belief system. Then they go teach their beliefs to as many people as possible, and change government laws to fit their beliefs, and secure tax payer funding to reinforce their beliefs at every turn. Belief systems which pretends they are not belief systems, I consider to be the most dangerous and deceptive. Christian parents ask their children to turn to God and believe. The atheist pretends is all unquestionable fact, no belief needed, just believe what so and so says is reality.

          11. Re: “My biggest problem with the atheist, is that they actually think they stopped relying on a world view.”

            How? By asking for evidence?

            Re: “Then they go teach their beliefs to as many people as possible, and change government laws to fit their beliefs, and secure tax payer funding to reinforce their beliefs at every turn.”

            I think you’re projecting. Have you looked in the mirror? Have you not heard about the so-called Moral Majority or “Focus on the Family” or the Christian Broadcasting Network or the “Alliance Defending Freedom” or “Liberty University” or the “Family Research Council” or the “American Family Association,” et cetera, et cetera?

            The religious right in America is lavishly funded and politically well-connected. And if they were actually right, you might have seen some improvements in people’s lives by now. But mostly all that money goes to improving the lifestyles and influence of a few select pastors and their families.

          12. Currently, small amount of money compared to the aclu and planned parenthood. Interesting how people like to give money toward their belief systems on both sides.

          13. Well, you’ve acknowledged that there are lobbyists on your side. Now, you should add up the operating budgets of those organizations, and think about who donates to them and why.

          14. I donated to ADF a few months back because my borough was getting sued by the aclu on behalf of an atheist and a Satanists because our borough let them make a mockery of prayer during the prayer time before assembly and to ensure it didn’t happen again tried to enact policies to limit prayer time to actual believers.
            The Satanist and the Atheist claimed their belief systems should be covered under freedom of religion. OK then, so they’re suing for religious freedom rights while at the same time teaching their religion to children like it’s just science. I don’t like deceptive, lying belief systems being taught to children. When my four year old came back from his first day if preschool last fall, he had a big flashy dinosaur book which had hardly any info, but the first words were, “65 million years ago”. The book was on a government sanctioned list.

          15. That’s because it’s a SCIENCE book, not a religion book, and all scientific evidence we have points to dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It’s called education and has nothing to do with atheism.

          16. I wish you were right, but all I see is religious bias and belief systems which will tell children it’s ok to sleep around and abort their children. That there is no authoritative moral arguments against prostitution and pornography. And that God didn’t make them male and female and homosexuals can’t choose to exit or enter homosexuality. Why would a people purposely choose to believe these things and choose to highlight any evidence that might be seen to support these claims? Is this just about dealing with guilt, pretending sin doesn’t exist and that your beliefs and subsequent actions can’t hurt anybody.

          17. Freedom of religion means all religions, including religions you may find “satanic.” Satan is just another god in the Christian pantheon. The difference between science and religion is that scientists change their theories when confronted with new evidence.

            This Scientific American Article talks about the timeline for how we came to our current understanding of the age of the Earth. You should read the work of scientists who aren’t creationists with an agenda to sell you their religious bunkum. At least you could see what other evidence is out there. The words “65 million years ago” are not controversial among people who value reality.
            https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-science-figured-out-the-age-of-the-earth/

          18. I don’t like deceptive, lying belief systems being taught to children. When my four year old came back from his first day if preschool last fall, he had a big flashy dinosaur book which had hardly any info, but the first words were, “65 million years ago”.

            So you’re able to prove scientifically that Chicxulub impact event and associated KT Boundary Layer is not 65.5 M years old? Please present your peer reviewed papers and associated experimental geologic data. I can guarantee you an audience with some physicists and geologists here in Austin. I’ll even offer to pay for the airplane ticket for ya from Alaska.

          19. I’m no scientist, but I do like Austin. I get down there once in a while with an Aunt and Grandma in the area. My great Grampa had a ranch which Austin consumed as it got bigger. My Grandma still lives on a piece of the original ranch. They have a spring fed pool with a natural rock bottom, which my great grampa had made probably over 60yrs. ago now.
            I believe evolutionist have been piling up evidence for years, because it is a defense of their religion for them. If they can see things skewed a certain way to fit their philosophy, they will. I just heard an interviewed Richard Dawkins, when asked about the overwhelming amount if biological information and intelligent design and he said it’s possible that aliens could have created life on omitted earth, but obviously they themselves must have evolved. So if there was no plausible evidence on earth the evolutionist would still believe it must have happened somewhere else in some way that we’ll never be able to reproduce in laboratories here on earth. How’s that for trying to escape reality?

          20. Of course they can’t make decisions on their own? They’re just poor weak lambs who’ll be eaten by wolves if it weren’t for big, strong, Christian men to shepard them!

            That was snark on my part, Knox, but also basically what you sound like.

        3. Those “freedoms” are very recent. Your Christians based courts allowed men to escape paying child support until fairly recently. The churches and the whole society was run by men who allowed men to escaped responsibility! You make blanket statement without knowing what the facts are! I notice you do not blame any of this on Christians that were the huge majority and held the positions of power and how many preachers have used their positions to take advantages of women! We atheists have a long history of supporting women’s rights and dignity compared to backward Christians and their churches!

          1. I’m glad you have a long history of supporting women’s rights and dignity. Now help me abolish abortion, sex slavery, prostitution, and transgendering, because these things with their supportive belief systems, are much more harmful to women and children then men. Just because evil men worked the system in the past doesn’t mean they are unable to work the current system.

          2. I’m sure more people would help you fix the actual ills of “sex slavery” if you weren’t so gung-ho about trying to control other people’s sex lives and gender.

          3. Places on the earth where prostitution is rampant, also tend to have huge problems with trafficking. The problem is more specifically a philosophy that is fine with using other people in a way you wouldn’t want to be used.

          4. Re: “Places on the earth where prostitution is rampant, also tend to have huge problems with trafficking.”

            You like to make broad statements without citing any sources or defining your terms.

        4. The injustice is denying a woman agency to do with her body what she will… be that having consensual sex or choosing not having sex at all, aborting a pregnancy voluntarily or carrying a pregnancy voluntarily, choosing to donate blood or an organ or choosing not to do so, etc.

    3. Hopefully, not the god myth that flooded the earth, killing everything, except Noah and The Gang. Babies and toddlers were killed along with the ones that god termed evil, along with kittens and puppies. Hopefully those girls are not the god that ok’ed the death of every firstborn son.

      Also, if Mr Ham is so anti abortion, he should pro birth control.

      1. In your attempt to judge God, you are atleast in agreement that there is right and wrong, good and evil. If there is a better way for God to judge, there is also a best way.

        1. Isaiah 45:7 claims that your fake Bible “God” created good and evil! And yet believers have been confused as to where “evil” comes from. But then most could not read or write until the 1800’s and poorly then. Then most never read the book to see what it actual said. I took notes when young and later in high school! Lots of notes! Try to find a believer who would do that! Not that the book can possibly be accurate! Full of errors of fact from the first chapter of Genesis! Contradictions galore! Impossible claims unless to blinded that you have no rational mind!

          1. The word evil in this verse would refer to war and calamity I believe, because it is contrasted with peace. But if you read the chapter, God is talking about pagan dictator type ruler whom God raised up, made extremely powerful, and then used him as a tool to do this or that, even though the dictator never even knew God. God can use the foulest greediest person to scrape together a pile of riches, just so that God can give it to someone who is good in His sight. God is way more involved in people’s lives then most people think. Even if you don’t know Him or in your heart pretend He isn’t there, He is still to using your life for His purpose. I grabbed these two verses from the chapter……..Isaiah 45:5, 15 (KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
            verse 15 speaking of God……Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

            God hides Himself while clothing, feeding, and empowering His would be enemy, but then we see the would be enemy even while hating God is used of God like a servant.

            Is this why God laughs when the heathen rage, and kings of the earth set themselves in battle array against Him.

    4. Whatever they worship, if anything, it’s none of your business, any more than my family planning or what kind of pet I have.

      Boundaries, you need to learn them. They’re not your women, not your fetuses, not your business. The end.

      1. Belief systems cannot all be equally valued. We cannot allow a child sacrifice religion to set up shop and claim they need their religious freedom too.

        Can one live and interact with others without belief system bias? Can a government rule and judge the people without depending on a selected belief system? It’s time for people to recognize separation of church and state is a joke and currently employed to keep a secular God hating humanism in charge, taught to children, and encoded in our laws. There will always be belief systems in charge, so choose wisely and don’t bite the hand of those who speak up and claim there is a better way to live.

        1. Can men mind their own business and let women deal with their unique circumstances?

          Obviously not.

          1. Men have a tendency to put women into these pregnancy predicament, without being committed to her or providing for her. Our current state accepted belief systems, pretend he can use her like a toy and bear no consequences as long as she is willing to abort the baby.

          2. “Put women into these pregnancy predicaments.”

            That might be the most misogynistic statement you’ve said so far. Do men just walk up to women and have sex with them? Aren’t women willing participants in your world? Ever consider that some women don’t want commitment or feel like they need a man to provide for them?

            Your view of gender roles is straight out of 1920. Modern women are empowered and in control of their own lives and their own bodies. If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one. Leave everyone else alone.

          3. I consider man’s use of women this way to be incredibly inconsiderate and selfish. If it’s wrong, is wrong. It doesn’t matter what century your in. If you have a daughter, you want her to be treated right with respect and honor. The men in her life should be actively protecting her and providing for her, not offering her drugs for a quicky.

          4. Is it more misogynistic to pretend women can physiologically be treated the same as men and force them to rely on abortions or raise children on their own?

          5. Christians who call abortion “murder” are the ones who are socially trying to force women to only have one option with no choice that will allow them to have some real options with their life! When that has not worked then support bombing clinics and killing doctors and fear of being killed reduced many who wanted to provide abortions, but terror tactics were used! Posting people’s addresses online and names and then waiting for someone to do the deed! Now passing laws to try to make impossible for clinics to stay open! Religious hatred is part of the Bible teachings where they were blamed in false story of eating fruit from what? “The tree of Good and Evil” what a crock of a story! Women were valued less than males and men had many wives if they had the wealth! No one man one woman there! Men ruled over all the women! Women could be sold into sexual slavery according to the Bible and they could be raped as war booty or if a woman was not betrothed she could be raped and then the man could offer her father money and if he accepted the rapist could marry the woman. She had no say! All the way up to 1800’s in the U.S. when women had almost no rights! So the long struggle for women rights were the church was most often opposed. Just like the Bible supported slavery as the slaveholders quoted effectively! What a horrible book that Bible has been and the damaged done from what it says was what “God” wanted!

          6. Christians like sex and not uncommon for Christian women to get pregnant. Many stories of those who say they are opposed to abortion until they themselves or their daughters get pregnant and they look for a way to get an abortion quietly! Not surprising that even the believers act this way secretly so no one knows or only their doctor or they take a trip to visit a relative or friend! When they return no one knows what they did! Lots of stories that people have told where this is what happened by their own account later! I know several women personally that are “religious” who have told me that they have had an abortion when young!

          7. I read an account of a woman who told the abortionist while she was getting an abortion that she believed it was wrong and was going to go out on the sidewalk picketing the clinic immediately after the procedure was finished. How’s that for messed up and hypocritical.
            But what of the atheist, who is convinced the baby should have human rights at conception, and so refuses to abort or have sex that could force her into that situation. Shall not her actions prove what she really believes and condemn the supposed believer who in reality, only pretends to have such convictions.

          8. Fun fact: Pro-Choice means, if that’s her choice, then good on her. The hypocrisy only comes in if she demands everyone “makes” the same choice she did. Her body is her own and she may do what she feels is right with it. That same principle applies even to women who choose differently, because it is a CHOICE.

          9. Fun fact, you can place people in a predicament and then give them choices so that they feel like they have a little bit of control over the injustice done to them.

          10. No. If you jackholes weren’t stupidly against contraception, you wouldn’t be whining about abortions. Contraception eliminates the need.

        2. Read your Bible where the first born was to be sacrificed to your fake, non-existence “God” thought up by ancient people who believed like Jesus character that people were sick because they were possessed by demons! Abraham thought he heard a voice that he decided was a “God” who told him to sacrifice his son and he prepared to do it! Or so the story claims! Do you possess a B.S! detector? At 7 yrs of age I knew people did not walk on water, nor raise anyone once actually dead, if they were really dead! I said I could see someone tricking people! Their knowledge was not much in those days! Jonah claimed to have been swallowed by a big fish and then coughed up fine three days later? No he would have been fish food! Lot of these fantastic stories were told to people who could not read and write and had no schooling at all and were very superstitious and believed lots of things that were not true. The rich and the religious took advantage of their ignorance. Many religious preachers were very ignorant themselves! But some had learned to live off others by feeding them fantastic stories and tricking people people with the help of others who he would claim to “heal”! The Bible even said that others similar to Jesus was doing “miracles” also! Miracles to the gullible!

          1. Although admittedly fantastic, I still find it much more believable then to believe out of nothing, something came, and that we all self created, writing miles of dna for even the simplest of creatures. A single human cell operates like New York city. Also, I find it insane to think morality is created by humans and easily edited by humans. I’ve read atleast two other accounts of people swallowed by whales who survived. There is an insane amount of supernatural phenomena recorded in history as well as present. It would be a leap of faith to think all these things just happened naturally or accidentally and that there is no hidden spiritual world.

        3. “We cannot allow a child sacrifice religion to set up shop and claim they need their religious freedom too.”

          Then go talk to the governor of Idaho. He’s perfectly OK with christians sacrificing their kids.

      1. So because they work to decrease the number of murders they have to commit, I should let them teach their philosophy of life to children in public school? I don’t think so…..

        1. Ignoring your deliberately misleading and provocatively phrased “murders they have to commit,” it’s better that than teach an abstinence-only philosophy that (1) doesn’t work and (2) results in more abortions. Right?

          1. It doesn’t work as long people are taught your belief system, which pretends there is no God and no judgement, and no good or wrong way to treat each other, and that anything is ok as long as it’s consensual.

          2. Re: “It doesn’t work as long people are taught your belief system, which pretends there is no God and no judgement, and no good or wrong way to treat each other, and that anything is ok as long as it’s consensual.”

            You should re-read carefully what you wrote. Your statement itself is contradictory. Consider that consent would be an improvement for your belief system, whether you’re talking about sexual consent or consent to be governed by someone else’s imaginary friends in the sky or someone else’s interpretation of a 1600-year-old anthology of oral lore.

            And your philosophy pretends that your imaginary friends exist, pretends that an afterlife exists, pretends that your book is magic, that your thoughts are magic, that your imaginary friends have the authority and power to tell other people how to live their own lives, and your philosophy disregards people’s consent and the good human judgment of real human beings.

            Your philosophy is basically overbearing, patronizing, inconsiderate fantasy and bunk. However, I’m just trying to deal with everyday reality and treat people how I might want to be treated if I were in their position.

            So you might want to understand my philosophy before you criticize it. Thanks.

          3. Do you see how treating others as you’d like to be treated is better then treating others as they’d like to be treated? I believe the God hater is also made in the image of God and that God is good to him, with life, food, clothing, shelter, breath, and a multitude of things to enjoy. It is because of this that I believe all men and women should be treated equally, respected, honored, and protected. It is this belief that has created the greatest religious freedom the world has ever known.

          4. Re: “Do you see how treating others as you’d like to be treated is better then treating others as they’d like to be treated?”

            You make no sense. How can you know how to treat someone well if you don’t bother to try to understand what their needs are? You’re just assuming you know better than they do about their own lives, which is arrogance. You have misconstrued the golden rule.

            I believe you’ve come to your conclusions out of a lack of knowledge of cultures that are not your own. You should take a course on comparative religions, or just try to talk to or read a few books by people from other cultures. As the ancient poet Rumi says, “There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground.” To me, that means a person can have gratitude for nature without believing in a particular religion, or any religion at all.

            It’s man that makes gods in their image, with their imaginations. There is no sense in hating imaginary gods. It’s kind of liberating when you think about it. When you are no longer busy pleasing an imaginary god, you can pay attention to what is important in life.

          5. Does your desire to get out from under His “imagined” thumb give you incentive to cling to some form of self creation and self moralization? Is this where your bias comes from?

          6. Gods don’t even have thumbs.
            I guess you can keep thinking that your imaginary friends give you authority to tell people what to do with their own lives and their own bodies. What a waste of your time, though. If you finally realize what a waste of your time and energy it is, you’re going to be angry at the human beings that taught you this holier-than-thou bunkum.

          7. your belief system, which pretends there is no God

            How can we be accused of denying the existence of something for which no evidence exists in the first place? Bronze-age myth and fable notwithstanding, the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.

            Do you consider that you, yourself, are pretending there is no Thor, or Zeus or any of the many thousands of Gods mankind’s imagination has dreamed up over the years?

            I’ll leave you with a pertinent quote from Stephen Roberts

            “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

        2. Murder?So you must surely be actively opposed to capital punishment so as not to kill an innocent person that was wrongly convicted?

          1. God’s first command after Noah exited the ark……..Genesis 9:5-6 (KJV)

            “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.

            Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”

            …………..The same belief system that demands protection of the child in womb, demands justice for those slain by a murderer because humans are made in the image of God and valued by Him. See how He says He’ll require it, but then says by man shall the execution be done. Those who refuse to execute the murderer also stand guilty before God.

          2. Unfortunately both of you still believe that this “book” of writings is the word of “God”! These are ancient religious made up story trying to explain what this or anyone else knew. So people in a variety of nations write a claimed history for their people to believe! This one was the Jews originally in a very small country that was usually paying tribute to some stronger country in the “Mideast” area! Imagine a “God” of such a small territory when there were much larger and more powerful countries around them. These people only where aware of a very small area of the entire Earth. They had heard of people who had been to India, etc in camel caravans and Northern parts of Africa only, very little beyond areas around the Mediterranean. I am sure you mean well but neither of you seem to be well educated beyond your belief in the Bible and maybe your church. We know personally many who have been locked into this kind of belief from indoctrination since childhood and once they get out they find so much that they had missed from being caught up in the Bible believing culture. Many ministers also but a whole variety of people! Personally I rejected beginning at 7 yrs of age, but that is very unusually because all are expected to believe! There was no option to not believe. No real freedom to think for yourself! Hope you can find your way out!

    5. People take birth control and still may get pregnant. The right to not have a child is important for women’s freedom. If men could get pregnant they then would want to right to terminate a pregnancy also! For the believers-isn’t your God responsible for all miscarriages? That is abortion!

      1. Christ spoke of how a sparrow doesn’t fall to the ground without God’s knowledge of it and how much more important humans are to Him. Christians don’t see God as responsible for system failures. The death of the still born would be no different then the natural death of the aged.

        1. Re: “Christians don’t see God as responsible for system failures.”

          Are you saying Christians don’t think their god is omnipotent?

          “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus

          1. Sure He is omnipotent and could stop the child from dying or the evil from happening, if He thought that was the right thing to do. The problem is in our limited scope of understanding and how different God is from us.

          2. Then he’s not omnibenevolent. And of course you’ve already cited “mysterious ways” as your explanation for it.

          3. Do you see how you want to judge me immoral for wanting to take away some sexual freedoms which I consider destructive, but then you also want to judge God as immoral for giving people freedom to sin because it is so destructive.

          4. Immoral? No. Inconsistent, condescending, condemnatory — those descriptors fit your attitudes far better.

            As for your triune deities and all their accompanying lesser gods and demigods, their only crimes are being imaginary, and I really can’t fault them for that.

    6. Can we tolerate belief systems which preach taking the child’s life before first breath is morally ok?

      This is the morality that came down to us from the Bible.

      In Hebrew ‘spirit’ and ‘breath’ are the same word. A person’s spirit entered their body with their first breath and left the body with their last.

      Nowhere in the Bible is abortion forbidden. In case of causing a miscarriage, it is treated as a property crime (a fine paid to the father) rather than murder which is only punishable by death.

      The only specific mention of abortion is in Numbers 5. A man who suspects one of his wives of being pregnant by another man may take her to the temple priests. A potion is made, a spell is cast, and the woman made to drink the potion. If she is guilty, she will abort.

      In the one place the Bible that mentions abortion, it is a rite performed by God’s chosen priests — in the temple!

      1. In a society that treasures children, you don’t have to tell them abortion is wrong. The woman getting pregnant was considered a huge blessing from God.

        The passage about a man accidentally striking a woman and causing a premature birth says only a fine should be paid if the child is fine. If the child dies or is maimed because of the incident, then the law would step in on the child’s behalf requiring life for life. Exodus 21:22-24 (KJV) If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
        And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
        Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

        Numbers 5 sounds like a way to get rid of jealousy mainly and perhaps something causing infertility, nothing to do with abortion or a pregnant woman.

          1. I just thought I’d share it with you because it contradicts some of the tribalism you display in many of your comments. Godly people, in many cases, treat children worse than godless people do, and this is just one example.

            By the way, you keep spelling “sick” without the “k.” “Sic” is a Latin word meaning that the source you copied it from wrote it or said it wrong and you’re copying the error from the source. So sometimes using it contradicts your intended meaning. I hope you don’t mind me “correcting your grammar.” I just thought I’d try to be helpful.

        1. In a society that treasures children, you don’t have to tell them abortion is wrong. The woman getting pregnant was considered a huge blessing from God.

          But God did take time out to tell these people not to murder. Are you saying this society didn’t ‘treasure’ life so God had to point out murder was wrong?

          God took time out from his very busy schedule of not curing disease or feeding starving children to tell his favorite tribe not to eat shrimp, or mix fabrics in clothing, or to boil a goat in its mother milk, and what bits of their hair they were not allowed to trim. But he didn’t think it necessary to forbid abortion because these people would never have even considered it?

          The passage about a man accidentally striking a woman and causing a premature birth says only a fine should be paid if the child is fine. If the child dies or is maimed because of the incident, then the law would step in on the child’s behalf requiring life for life.

          Lets look at it in more modern translations:

          New American Standard 1977

          22 “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage

          Jubilee Bible 2000

          If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts

          Douay-Rheims Bible

          If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry

          Any recent translation will at least have this in the footnotes. The implication is that the baby dies. The bit about ‘mischief follows’ refers to the other actors in the fight, most notably the woman.

          Numbers 5 sounds like a way to get rid of jealousy mainly and perhaps something causing infertility, nothing to do with abortion or a pregnant woman.

          Again, perhaps you should consult a better translation:

          21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a cursed among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

          The priests make a potion, give it to the woman, and she miscarries. Sounds like a chemically induced abortion to me.

    7. A fetus is protected just fine by the rights of the woman who is pregnant. your idiot attempts at giving further rights to a fetus is just a backhanded attempt to strip the woman of her rights.

    8. Can we tolerate belief systems which preach taking the child’s life before first breath is morally ok?

      Can we tolerate a belief system that is all lies like Jeriah Knox’s perversion of xianity?
      Sure.
      We’ve been tolerating fundie xianity since it was invented a century or two ago.
      Thanks to liars like Jeriah Knox, those toxic cults are dying out.
      US xianity loses 2 million members a year.

  4. Anything Ken Ham says or does is to further his for-profit business activities … I doubt he gives a damn about christianity at all. Christianity is just his business model.

    1. Let me summarize the first few minutes of the video for you: I don’t want to attack women, I just want to tell them what to do with their own bodies.

      1. Telling a woman she should abort because she can’t afford it, is also telling her what to do with her body and with her child’s body.

    2. “I don’t want to attack these women…” (who are either ignorant, stupid, or evil, because informed, good people know that a zygote is no different from a conscious human being.)

  5. Today June 5 2017 a baby in OR. was murdered-by-faith ..Half a dozen church members stood around and did not call 911 .. The parents “will !” be charged with murder..

  6. And that makes sense to you as a rational adult? You do realize that answer is made up, since no one can answer the “Where did god come from” question, right? There’s no such thing as “always was.” How long did god exist before the universe? 1 day? 100 trillion years? What did he do before the universe was created? Just sat around alone with nothing to do? That must have been so boring. Why didn’t he create the universe sooner? Why is the universe so expansive if all he wanted to do was create a tiny planet earth for us to live on? Why was the earth in existence for millions of years before humans appeared? Before any life appeared? You see, we have so much more knowledge of the universe now than we did when your Bronze Age book was written, that these fables no longer hold water or make any logical sense at all. You holy book, and all others, are irrelevant. But the brainwashed like you still hold on for dear life, denying all evidence that contradicts your outdated ideology. You’re wasting your time here. You can’t win an argument by using irrational themes against rational people.

    1. You’re right, people can’t say for sure what has or has not happened, but if God says it was so and that He was there and made it happen, shouldn’t I trust Him over people that suppose this or that.

      1. Um…NO! We have absolutely no evidence such a being exists. How you, or any other human, can allege that “God” said something is ludicrous! It holds the same weight, if not less, for me to say that Bigfoot told me how he created the universe. (Since there’s more evidence that Bigfoot exists.) You should have stopped after your first thought when you said that I’m right. You would have sounded rational. Now that humans have the ability to record images and sounds, wouldn’t it make sense for this “God” to appear and set the record straight so that all of his precious children who are killing each other in holy wars will stop? If his ultimate goal is to be worshiped by all and to save us, that would be all he’d need to do. But he hasn’t. Want to know why? Because no gods exist. They’re fabrications created by man to give explanations to the unknown. Wake up, pal.

        1. I’m trying to wake people up to the fact that they live in a world where they as humans are forced to believe. The couple aborting their child do so placing their faith in a belief system. What if God created a world where people know enough, that they are without excuse, when they choose to believe a lie or love a lie. Can a person walk across the street without relying on belief systems? Can he look at a tree or watch a bird fly without seeing the world through his belief system goggles? Bias is inescapable. So why do you believe what you do? Why should the child have no human rights until first breath?

          1. I base my beliefs on evidence. You should too, instead of putting faith in a bronze age book written by desert dwellers who didn’t know where the sun went at night. Even that shitty book says life begins at first breath. Every response you have for me deflects from what I’ve presented. If you can’t address the comments I’m making, then don’t respond at all.

          2. Every belief system points to evidence supports, if it didn’t need evidence, it wouldn’t be a belief system.

          3. Even the declaration that you believe there is no God is an evidence supporting your belief system even if rather weak.

            Faith always has to have something tangible to which it clings even if it’s just somebody’s words.

            If you made up a claim that big foot created the world and your claim was the only evidence, the belief system could still hang on that single claim.

            Belief systems are never based on faith alone, because then they couldn’t even be expressed.

          4. If belief systems were based on evidence, they’d be called reality. The earth is a sphere. That is not a belief system; it’s reality. Flat-earth is a belief system because it’s contrary to evidence. Anyway, we’re getting way off topic. Once you can address the discussion at hand and all of the questions I’ve posed, then go for it. Otherwise, I’m not interested in continuing a conversation with someone who chooses to be willfully ignorant.

          5. Before people understood the earth was a sphere, they relied on belief systems and pointed to evidence supporting what they believed. Now that the fact is clearly observable, their is no belief system required. Things you believe exist or happened, that are unobserveable and unrepeatable are expressed with belief systems. (I believe I accidentally created myself and evolved morals, which I can edit, ect.)

          6. Everywhere I look, the existence of matter, the fine tuning of the universe, dna programming, the variety and fragility of life. I’m a builder, and I see design everywhere. If I see a well built home, I don’t wonder how that happened. The scriptures speak of the earth like a garment wearing out, entropy. Things are falling apart, degrading, aging, not becoming more sophisticated and capable. Dna changes result in loss of information, not creation of new information. Morality, where does that come from? Evolutionary theories of how we supposedly evolved a conscience and guilt, are a joke.

          7. “I don’t know, therefore God didn’t do it”, seems pretty childish to me.
            I don’t know why it’s wrong to kill, but we should be able to change that if it’s inconvenient. We wrote our own laws back in the day anyway. If I say a child should have no human rights until they can talk or cry about it, who can say otherwise. (sarc)

          8. Nice try reversing that phrase back to me. Again, childish. “I know you are but what am I?” You’re so wrong it’s ridiculous. If we don’t know how something happened, we should be researching and following the scientific method to better understand it, not assign some arbitrary unverifiable explanation like “god”. Why not just say “aliens” or “bigfoot” or “unicorns”? Why god? That’s so fucking stupid and you’re too wrapped up in your Christian bubble to realize it. At no time in the history of the world has any answer to any question turned out to be “god did it”. Instead, we now have natural scientific answers to questions that were previously answered in the bible and attributed to god. (7-day creation, manna from heaven, burning bush, pillars of salt, etc) The more we discover, the more that trend continues. Christianity and the rest of the Abrahamic religions will fade off into obscurity someday just as the 2000+ gods and religions before them. At one point, our ancestors had these same arguments about Roman and Greek gods. Then we made discoveries that rendered those gods obsolete. The same is happening every day with your god, and it will continue.

          9. You are the furthest thing from a critical thinker I’ve encountered in some time. The fact that you call yourself that is just an egregious display of cognitive dissonance. You can go away now. You’re not convincing anyone here. You’ve lost every argument you’ve started here and refuse to comment on any of the actual evidence that’s been shown to you. Your willful ignorance is horrific. Go back to your echo chamber where people find you “intelligent.” That’s not happening here.

          10. You should see some of the other “discussions” I’ve had with him. It’s mildly amusing, yet somewhat scary because people like him vote.

          11. I realize that you’re just a troll at this point, but FWIW: I am a woman who wrote a 50-page anti-abortion essay in high school and was extremely involved in all sorts of pro-life, conservative Christian things, until reality (extensive travel + research into all types of sources, including Christian ones, + common sense as a woman who realized how odd it is that women bear the sole responsibility for a person’s choice to have unprotected sex, which is illogical) intervened. So I did indeed recognize what I was taught to believe, from your ilk, as 100% FALSE!!!

          12. According to your logic, God is the biggest mass-murderer of all time. But that doesn’t matter, because you’re okay with his commanding of genocide, right? Just checking.

          13. “I don’t know why it’s wrong to kill…”
            It’s not. Try eating a live cow sometime.

          14. You have such a self absorbed and egotistical view of the universe.

            …the fine tuning of the universe

            Claiming that it’s fine tuned also means you have ability to change any of these values, or know all of the permutations that will or will not result in your desired outcomes. We have exactly one universe to observe, and no known way to observe any other. Mathematically, the possibility that life could evolve in the universe is exactly 100%.

            dna programming

            Coming from a computer programming background, I can assure you that DNA does not appear to be programmed. The chemistry of life is amazingly complex and we do not understand it, but that doesn’t mean life was designed. I mean, who would put a pleasure center right next to a waste dump? Seems kinda messed up to me.

            Dna changes result in loss of information, not creation of new information.

            Wrong. Haploid duplication is one of the most common survivable genetic mutations in both plants and animals. In fact polyploid gene amplification has been observed even in human muscle tissue. Just because you do not understand something doesn’t mean it’s magic.

            Morality, where does that come from? Evolutionary theories of how we supposedly evolved a conscience and guilt, are a joke.

            Yep, my dog that cared for those lost kittens — totally told by god to do it.

          15. One thing I’ve learned, people are stupid enough to follow anything, including Christianity and Scientology.

          16. Do you spend a lot of time thinking up the dumbest thing you can ask and then go full retard on these sites? Or does it come natural, and you can just hammer away at the keyboard and derp comes flowing like a river?

          17. The couple aborting their child probably don’t want children, but Christians shut down the women’s clinic to make it harder to get access to contraception.

      2. Show me where God actually said ANYTHING? There are plenty of examples of people saying God said ‘this’ or ‘that’…but funny how there are no examples of God doing the actual communication, just a bunch of people claiming to be His sockpuppet.

        1. Psalms 62:11 (KJV) God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

          My guess, part of God’s expression of authority is to only speak once. Romans 1 says men are without excuse.

          Romans 1:19-20 (KJV) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
          For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

          1. True, but I also believe it is God’s word to us. He spoke through their words, creating inspired scripture. But my point was, God doesn’t have to speak twice and His perspective seems to be that men have enough evidence in their life experiences to be considered without excuse.

          2. Yes, God is so powerful he needs other people speak for him.

            As to the ‘without excuse’ stuff….sounds like what a cult would come up with in terms of logic.

            And of course Christians have to believe people are without excuse, otherwise they would have to admit the God they worship is an immoral thug.

  7. Kevin was on point, these girls are taking a stand for what they believe in. When do you believe a person should get human rights? If you believe it’s at first breath, why?

    1. “When do you believe a person should get human rights.”

      Human rights should accrue with the ability to be conscious, and since the ability for consciousness doesn’t happen all at once, neither should full human rights.

      Even if Evangelicals were allowed to decide the issue with no input from anyone else, you could not live with the consequences of giving full human rights to fertilized eggs. If you’re going to treat abortion of fetuses as murder, that would not be enforceable unless you plan daily checks of the vaginas of every female of child-bearing age.

        1. “Nobody has a problem with natural death, just the unnatural spilling of blood and ripping limb from limb.”
          It doesn’t matter how you mischaracterize it, you wouldn’t be able to live with a decision to extend full human rights to the point of conception. If you consider abortion after conception to be “murder,” then the state would be obligated to rigorously monitor women’s bodies, to make sure no conception has taken place that doesn’t result in either an act-of-god abortion or a birth.

          I was “pro-life” myself for a long time, but either the movement has grown toxic, or it was never what it seemed. When I started realizing how much the movement lies and uses terror tactics to get its way, I became disgusted. To make things worse, the movement grows worse every year. Now, a lot of otherwise-sane people are talking about “personhood of the fetus,” but vagina monitoring would be a necessary outcome of that kind of extremism.

          1. No matter what you chose to believe, you have to believe the child should get human rights at some point. Your worldview is test driven. The rubber is on the road. At some point murder becomes murder, big people killing little people because they don’t fit their particular paradigm of a better world. People shouldn’t allow others to kill, even if we could never really know when the baby should get human rights.

          2. “No matter what you chose to believe, you have to believe the child should get human rights at some point.”

            Are you talking to someone else? Because that doesn’t make sense as a response to anything I’ve said. And Yes, I recognize the slap at everyone who isn’t Evangelical. The rest of us aren’t following a 1700-year-old book like a user’s manual, so we have no source for knowledge other than what pleases us to create. Or do you think that Satan makes it up and fools us into believing?

            “At some point murder becomes murder…”

            At some point KILLING becomes murder, but it isn’t your arbitrary line in the sand. Evangelicals crave bright lines and absolute certainty, so you seized on DNA and decided that’s what makes a person. And to prove my point, you said,

            “People shouldn’t allow others to kill, even if we could never really know when the baby should get human rights.”

            So we pick an arbitrary point that has nothing to do with the evidence, and as long as Evangelicals are sure it’s not murder, we just forget all the actual thinking, feeling people who are hurt unnecessarily. Just like Pascal’s Wager, your certainty is more important than actually finding out what’s true.

            And the fact of the matter is, Evangelicals will just move the goal posts further when they start to feel uncertain again. Maybe in a few years, Evangelicals decide the Bible talks about the evil of spilling seed, so masturbation becomes murder.

          3. So you believe women’s rights to THEIR OWN BODIES should be stolen from them and ceded to someone else when an ovum is fertilized? How does that not render women enslaved? How does that not give them fewer rights than ALL men and even corpses?

        2. During the time abortions are legal, there are no limbs.
          Just nubs.

          It’s not a Gerber Baby at that point, just a blob.

    2. Such a question only really makes sense if you consider something to either only ‘have human rights’ or ‘not have human rights’. As such, I do not believe that there is any one moment that a fetus suddenly ‘becomes’ a person, but that it is a gradual process.

      The law isn’t equipped to handle a graduated degree of personhood though, and for the purposes of governance some threshold must be set, and I think that fetal viability at ~23 weeks is a reasonable threshold, as it would give the carrier of that fetus enough time to come to a decision whether or not to carry that pregnancy to term.

      1. It also gives her time to decide to kill it if it’s a girl and she wanted a boy, or if it’s mixed race and she wanted a certain race, or if it’s going to have a handicap that might bother her. Should we allow her to drink alcohol all she wants, while she decides what is morally permissible? Her body, her choice, and just some cells which happen to be her son or daughter’s life (whether long or short) ruined.

          1. Why, because you believe the rapist was born a rapist with no control over his sexuality or a somehow a victim of his inordinate desire and thus didn’t have any control over the unfortunate events. Get real, Christ overturned the money changers tables and drove them out of the temple with a whip and He didn’t wash the prostitutes feet, she washed His. Christ said He came to bring a sword between family members. He came to be a stone on which people are broken on if they receive Him or crushed by if they reject Him.

          2. Wow, way to “massage” scripture to fit your idiotic capital punishment stance. Christian apologists at their worst. I guess when Jesus actually stopped an execution (if you believe the bible, that is). “He who is without sin may cast the first stone.” Ring a bell?

            Also, Jesus dined with sinners, he didn’t cast them out or turn them over to authorities to be killed. He wanted to rehabilitate them.
            “While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
            On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.””

            **And nowhere did I even come close to asserting a rapist is born a rapist with no control over his actions. Where in the hell did you get that bullshit?

          3. True, you did not say that and I said it, trying to point out the lunacy of those that claim sexuality is outside of human control and therefore outside of judgement. Maybe, I got triggered because there are people that twist science to claim the homosexual is born homosexual and that he can’t or shouldn’t choose to become heterosexual, therefore he has no fault in continuing in homosexuality.
            Just because Christ has the authority to forgive and the power to heal doesn’t mean forgiveness and restoration is inevitable. People can seek forgiveness with tears streaming down their face, but if there is no change in what they value and worship, can anyone say God forgave them and saved them? Maybe they were just crying because they thought the karma they were facing was too severe and God’s standard too exacting? In other words, they are rebelling against God, while they feign asking for forgiveness.
            When Jesus stopped the execution of the woman caught in adultery, He didn’t say stop because I am forgiving her. He didn’t say the execution would be wrong in and of itself. He just asked that the man without sin throw the first stone. This made everyman think of his own guilt and the hypocrisy of accusing the woman when they were guilty of simular atrocities, even if just in the mind. Yes, Christ loves to save sinners, but He doesn’t leave them enslaved to their sins.

          4. Awesome. You’re one of the very few relics of antiquated thought who believe people aren’t born gay. So what you’re saying is that you weren’t (presumably) born straight and that you made a conscious decision to be attracted to the opposite sex. All I can tell you is that I was born the way I am, and don’t choose who I’m attracted to. I’m sexually attracted to women and I don’t consciously think about it, nor have I made any decision to be. Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex and did not make a choice to be. The fact that you think someone would make a choice to be gay and subject themselves to hate, bigotry, and discrimination is just plain dumb. You’re obviously guided by your religious beliefs over critical thought. Wonderful example of willful ignorance. Following the evidence and leading to the conclusion that people are born gay is too scary for you to handle — the thought that your holy book could be flawed — the horror! Your refusal to evolve with modern knowledge is a testament to the thought control religion exerts on people. You’re so lost.

          5. Last I’d heard, people were born male or female, but somebody’s religion ran over science and logic and now grade schoolers are asked if they’d like to be an opposite or indifferent gender. So a child can choose to be their opposite gender, but the homosexual can’t choose to become less homosexual. It’s like a one way street with you guys. If God wants to make the homosexual free, is your belief system going to shout, “No, you can’t go back?” Is your belief system part of the chains that keep them bound to their sin? If God would make them free, they shall be free indeed, and your beliefs aren’t going to stop Him.

          6. You really don’t understand this subject at all, but I wouldn’t expect you to, since you’re so deluded by religion. Sex and gender are two different things. And sexual orientation is another subject altogether. In order to understand them, you should open your mind a bit and talk with people going through these struggles, rather than judge them based on the rules given to you in a book written by desert dwellers with no concept of the intricacies of human sexuality. There’s much more nuance to this subject than you’ll allow your shortsighted brain to comprehend.

          7. What’s funny besides being so tragic, is I believe I have a position with more room for nuance and one that considers freedom of choice. Whereas you are dogmatic, believing people have no choice. They’re born gay, just like people are born male or female.
            What’s more, I consider your position bigoted, because you actually think homosexuals are fundamentally different then heterosexuals. People in your belief system will always view and treat homosexuals differently because you think they are fundamentally different, as in dna and gene make up.

          8. I believe gay people are born gay because GAY PEOPLE SAY SO. That’s not bigoted, its fact based on experience. At what age did you decide to be straight and stop getting turned on by men? Oh wait, you didn’t decide who you’re attracted to, did you? You are a total fucking moron. We’re done here. Get off my site.

          9. Nobody is “asking grade schoolers” anything about their sexuality. You’re just pulling stuff out of your ass now.

          10. So, you have total control of what turns you on sexually, and what you are drawn to? When did you make that choice? Or are you just a complete idiot that likes to spew bullshit online?

          11. as for gods standard, god commits and orders genocide (to include women and children with personhood) on a regular basis in that book, and also heavily supports slavery in both old and new testaments. it is not a moral book and the sooner people stop treating it like it is, the better. jefferson had the right idea.

          12. Try this simple exercise, which you won’t do because you can’t.
            Take a week to be gay. Then tell me it’s a choice.

          13. Jeriah… lets put it this way… in this country religious arguments mean NOTHING with regards to laws. imagine a sect of any religion that is ok with abortion, well now your arguments against it are useless as both are faith based propositions.

            This is why the poorly named lifer movement needs good arguments, but they have none.

            its human, but we kill bodies/humans/husks all the time, especially the failed attachment rate of most ovum if you want to use time of conception. this argument just doesn’t work on a rational basis.

            its a baby/child/murder etc… this is explicitly known as an argument from emotion fallacy. it doesn’t give us a reason to do or not to do a thing, and even the murder concept is VERY loosely drawn at best.

            the real secular rational arguments arrived at are as follows… personhood is comprised of key elements that determine rights of pretty much any being, and we DO extend this to non humans to include, rats that we experiment on, pigs and varios other cattle, birds, squids and other cephalopods to the point even in experiments we require that we entertain them because boredom is tantamount to torture for cognizant beings.

            1. bodily autonomy (a fetus has this in NO way, until very late in the pregnancy, late term is a vast minority of cases often only carried out due to medical problems to save the mothers life who does have autonomy).

            2. capacity to feel fear, pain, and pleasure. this is a recognition of another beings ability to experience the present, and also to have memories enough to fear the future. a fetus has NONE of this in any way until quite late on, and even then, its only a small capacity for pain/pleasure with no memories or fear/anticipation. this is beneath what we observe in laboratory rats, and we kill them with deliberate cancer research and live vivisection under sedation (we actually do sedate late stage abortions for similar ethical considerations).

            3. as mentioned in two partially, memory is another key aspect. humans do not form any long term memories until we are around 2 years old.

            4. ability to exercise will. a fetus doesn’t have the memories or capacity at any point to exercise its will via decisions, communication, actions, or pretty much anything of the sort.

            these things said… we DO kill beings that have PART of these traits, and the closest you can get to a fetus, is a human that is brain dead (no chance of recovery), the mind is gone. arguably these have MORE personhood than a fetus (former memories and willpower, possibly in a literal legal will to determine the manner of death). otherwise we do kill these human bodies on a regular basis… they cannot feel pain, pleasure, anticipation, fear, do not have autonomy (life support), no memories, and no willpower to speak of.

            the other example that fits closely are mosquitos… but they ALSO have more personhood than a fetus. why? they have autonomy and a teeeeny amount of willpower/memory/pain/fear but these are so base in their execution they are instinctual and not experiences. and we have bug zappers that slaughter them by the billions worldwide.

            this is why ethics for a fetus doesn’t favor the religious jesus christ like viewpoint… the facts don’t stand up to supporting pro life, ESPECIALLY at the expense of the mother who DOES have personhood in a significant amount in ALL categories listed above. im sorry but the fetus shouldn’t have more rights than any being with these traits in abundance morally speaking.

          14. How would you force teenagers to give birth? You would have to prevent them from any and all means of inducing a miscarriage, so something like in saudi arabia where they’d be imprisoned and restrained 24/7. Would you do that?

  8. I didn’t know anything about Ken Ham before his Ark Park fiasco, but everything he says is based on the worst kind of blind, ignorant fundamentalism. These girls made a wonderful point in a time when women’s rights to control their own bodies is under attack by the religious right. I have more faith that America will become a better country when young people like them will be in charge.

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